Leaked document reveals Honda Insight mpg & CO2

Says the Toyota dealer. I'm shocked that you think the Toyota Prius is superior to the Honda Insight.

 

Exactly.

Malorn and spwolf should get together. They could spin each other dizzy.

 

The car was a "halo" car. It was not marketed to sell, just marketed to let the public know Honda had the most efficient gas car on the road. It did what it was supposed to. People would come in the Honda dealership, see the Insight was really small and buy the Civic.

The reason for this is clear, Honda lost money on the Insight. Not in the same way that people falsely say Toyota looses money on the Prius, but in the actual way, it cost more then $20,000 to build each one. It was handmade from mostly aluminum in Japan in the same factory that built the high end Acura NSX.

 

Excuse me? Can you please point me 1 single thing the Insight 2009 beats the 2004 Prius on? And please don't mention price... I'm talking about performance / consumption / hybrid system / MGs / etc.

Just name 1 if you can.

Let me put some things into perspective: The Prius 2004/6 has the wonderful HSD system with 2 MGs, making it possible to act as a series hybrid or as a parallel hybrid as it sees fit. Accelerating in a Prius puts the HCH in shame, and the HCH does have a lot more power than the Insight... just watch this video on this first post: O Prius tem melhores performances - Prius-PT

The Insight continues to use a basic parallel system, but downgrades it to about 13 hp from an already dumb 20hp on the HCH. The Insight therefore has only 13% of its power coming from the electrical motor. The 2004/6 Prius has a MG2 capable of 67hp representing 61% of total available power.

Excuse me for thinking that even the motors from my Prius windows elevators probably have more power combined than this ridiculous Insight MG!

On another note you are taking for granted that the Insight makes better fuel consumption numbers than the present Prius. This is not true, and I can explain it to you quite simply. The Insight gets better city consumption numbers on the rather dumb and most stupid ECE15 test cycle. But... and there is this big "but"... it LOOSES on the combined cycle!!!

We have been discussing and investigating this phenomena at Prius-PT.com and came to one single conclusion: The Insight is better than the Prius WHILE COLD but looses BIG TIME when the Prius gets at standard operating temperature!

Please see this post of mine just to take a look at the graphs so that I don't have to put them here again: Fotos Novo Honda Hybrid - Prius-PT

The first graph is for the European city driving ECE 15 test. This stupid test only takes 200 seconds and is only done 1, i.e. one iteration alone, and it includes warm-up in it. Now you tell me, what kind of test is this? Who on earth drives his car only for 200 seconds and shuts down after that?

The second graph is for the European extra urban cycle. Again this test is done only once, includes warm-up, and it takes only 400 seconds to finish. Dumb European legislators don't you agree?

The last graph is the combined cycle European test. This test cycle is comprised basically of 4 ECE15 tests done in sequence plus an extra urban cycle all without interruption.

Now the interesting thing is that the Insight ONLY beats the Prius on the ECE15 test. It ties on the extra urban, and LOOSES on the combined. The conclusion is simple: As the Prius ICE gets warmer, it takes it to stage 5 and the MG can take the car at ZERO consumption over the last ECE15 cycles, and gives far better consumption at the extra urban than the Insight, managing to win the combined simply because it had time to warm up properly. Something the Prius cannot do in only 200 seconds and the Insight seems to be able to do better (easy... it has 1300cc versus 1500cc on the Prius...)

So you see, the numbers actually LIE. The Insight if subjected to a proper test cycle with repetitive patterns will lose to the Prius. In actual real-world driving the Insight does not win on the consumption battle, period. I actually believe you fellow Americans have far better EPA test cycles than we do, so I really believe the Insight numbers will be QUITE DESAPOINTING!

You just wait and see...

So, worse performance, worse tech specs, worse hybrid system, worse mileage... how can you possibly say the Insight wins anything!?!?!?

It will probably have better gadgets, it sure should, 6 years after Toyota released the Prius... but to be a better car or better hybrid it takes more than just accessories and looks...

 

I'd have to agree, Honda may have fallen a bit short. Not too shocking, since they chose to stick with IMA (and at a reduced strength) instead of moving forward with their hybrid system development. The HCH is smaller, slower, and has a little worse mpg. Despite its lower prices tag, it hasn't held a candle to the Prius on sales. Seems to me the new insight is dejavu all over again. Compared to the new prius it will be smaller, slower, and a bit worse on mpgs, but a bit cheaper. Its possible the bursting of the fuel price bubble, combined with the economy could give honda a bit of an advantage with a lower sticker price. That will depend greatly on where Toyota places the entry price on the new Prius.

Rob

 

the accord hybrid was marketed as a performance hybrid with the fuel economy of a 4 cylinder, if the insight was considerably cheaper i bet many people would buy it, its funny how many people today are buying the "smart" car when the insight is a slightly bigger car with better fuel economy

I believe Honda used the IMA system because it was the most simple system in comparison with many other systems out there. ( excluding BAS)

 

Price. To disregard price is to deny one of the most important criteria that a customer uses to make their decision. If a customer can't afford your product or is not willing to pay the difference in price, it doesn't matter if you have a superior product.

Of course this whole discussion is based on a couple specs in a brochure. We know nothing about build quality, vehicle dynamics, accessories, ergonomics, etc.

You're a good salesman though. Stress all the areas in which your product is better and disregard everything else. Classic salesman spin.

 

i guess it would be superior because it is cheaper and has "step-back" hybrid system? .

You are right on your own, of course I am biased (well, my family is toyota dealer in eastern europe, so it is not like I am trying to sell you something ., but honestly, if Toyota made with 3rd gen Prius what Honda did with Insight, i would be honestly dissapointed. I expect them to have something like that with Auris or Avensis, but I would like for Prius to be superior hybrid, not toned down Hybrid.

 

why would Insight have better any of those compared to Prius? It is lower class vehicle. It is like expecting for Corolla to have more features, build quality and accessories, compared to Camry...

 

Looking in the mirror jhinton?

You jump to conclusions well too soon. I'm a software engineer, not a salesman, so there you have it.

I'm interested in moving over to pure EV vehicles, I'm interested and support ANY manufacturer that heads that way, be it Toyota or any other. While pure EVs don't have the range I need I will take hybrids, good strong hybrids.

I care for the environment and driving pleasure that I can get from a superior drivetrain. You care for your wallet alone. That says it all.

Since this is evolving to a personal attack, I will refrain from continuing this or any other discussion with you. I have made my point. You can either accept it or keep your head deep in the sand. I really don't care. I'll tell you this to end this discussion though: for a so called engineer you show very little respect or even interest in engineering!

 

If that's all the Insight can achieve then I think that they will have to set the price lower. The new Prius will be significantly better than the Insight in every aspect. It'll be larger and packed with more features too. And 100hp for a car that Honda claims to be around the size of a Prius? Hey, can this thing accelerate on a motorway at all?

 

Insight: 4.4 L/100km : 101 g/km
Prius: 4.3 L/100km : 104 g/km

The Insight is worse on the EU combined Fuel Consumption, but it is better on the CO2 emission.
Does anyone know why this happens?

Ken@Japan

 

This forum, of all places, should realize the high bar set by the Prius and how hard it will be to exceed by any manufacturer. Criticism of the new Insight for slightly lower mpg numbers seems a little unfair if Honda achieved this with a much simpler hybrid system. I want great success for all vehicles that reduce gas use significantly and do not think that the Prius is in any danger of losing significant market share to the Insight. The big three need to be worried. The next gas spike will now create two sales leaders.

 

jprates,

jhinton owns a Prius. I own a Prius. Speaking for myself, a good part of the reason I own a Prius and not a Honda hybrid is due to what I consider superior (and certainly more interesting and elegant) hybrid engineering. For me price was not the most important criteria, or I would likely still be happily driving my 40 mpg, 1994 Honda Civic. A goodly portion of the 97% of people who currently do not drive hybrids place cost at the top of their checklist when car buying. I think that people in that group who are interested in hybrids may well choose the Insight over the Prius.

You are quite abrasive to people who are already in your camp; I can just imagine how you interact with the other 98% of the populace.

 

...and while we chat the gas prices have risen from $147.9/gal to $179.9/gal. I'm glad Honda is back in the boat. Competition is good for product and sales.

 

I don't claim that Insight will be technically superior to the Prius. Just because the Insight isn't technically superior to the Prius doesn't mean that it wont be a commercial success.

I'm a Honda fan mainly due to their focus on driving dynamics and their resistance to jump into the truck and SUV market. Honda stuck to what they do best, making small, fuel-efficient cars. The fact that Honda makes excellent motorcycles helps sway may opinion too.

From an environmental standpoint Honda has a higher CAFE than Toyota. Though the Prius is incredibly fuel efficient it is offset by Toyota's whole hearted expansion into SUV's and trucks.

BTW, I'm curious, what part of Eastern Europe do you call home? I've been to Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, and the Czech Republic. My wife and I are looking to go back in 2010.

Driving Dynamics:
US Toyotas have always had poor driving dynamics. Toyota builds cars with soft suspensions, understeer, and lots of body roll. A large segment of the US population prefers this though I don't. On the other hand Honda is known for making good handling FWD cars.

Interior:
The US Prius has very poor interior materials for the price and has a grade of materials similar to the Corolla. Toyota has set a low standard here and it wouldn't be hard for Honda to beat them. I hope this is addressed in the 2010 Prius.

Ergonomics:
I'm not pleased with the ergonomics in my 2005 Prius. The seat is too high and the steering wheel too low. It doesn't fit me and isn't adjustable in the US model. I hate having the climate control and radio hidden in the touchcreen. Lots of people love the touch screen but I don't. I also don't like having the hybrid information in the center of the car. In the Civic Hybrid that information is directly in front of the driver. The civic also has a tachometer and has bar graphs to tell the driver how much electric power is being used or generated.

I drove the Honda Civic Hybrid first and liked it. Then I tried to buy one and had a 3 month wait list. On the other hand I had 6 Prius locally to choose from and liked the hatch. The Prius is a much larger car than what I need so the size is a disadvantage to me. The Honda CR-Z looks about ideal for me.

I've spent the last year working on the marketing side and have been working on my spin. Noting your salemanship was not meant to be a insult, it takes a lot more skill than I ever thought.

I'm also interested in moving to pure EV's. I don't see Toyota moving in that direction. In my opinion hybrids aren't a bridge to EV's. Toyota built an excellent EV more than 10 years ago, they have the technology just not the will.

I also care about the environment. I would much rather have someone that can't afford a $22K Prius buy a 45 mpg Insight instead of a 29 mpg Civic. There is a market for a low-cost hybrid.

 

jhinton - i think you are a lot more biased than me

- You are pointing negative sides of 2004 Prius, assuming cheaper Insight will be better - which does not make sense. Compare interior quality of Corolla and Civic (Prius never had as nice interior as Corolla btw).
- You are also pointing about things that we know are improved in 2010 Prius - like height adjustable driver seat, or dedicated climate control. Whats the point?
- You are interested into moving to full EV's, but you want to preffer vehicle which smaller batteries and smaller electric engine? How does that make any sense?

Hybrids are not bridge to EV's? You have to be kidding me... All major parts of EV's are shared with hybrids. Every advancement they make on electric motors, regen braking, batteries, and cost of all components are going to be shared with any future product, including EV's.

In one sentence you want people to drive affordable Insight instead of Civic, but you dont think 55 MPG Prius would be good alternative to EV that nobody could afford? .

You have to realize that Insight will have materials and build quality of cross between Fit and Civic, which would be one class lesser than Prius.


And i am from Croatian from Bosnia... I am glad you liked it here .

There is nothing wrong with Insight, it is just that it is vehicle made to be cheaper than Prius, and it is not advancing the field... I wanted them to making something new, add some crazy option, longer ev range, larger electric motors, etc, etc, do something innovative.

I am big gadget freak (i dont work at Toyota btw, have software company), so i kind of dig LED lights, smart entry, HUD, parking cameras, usb interfaces, etc, etc...

So again, i dont think Insight is bad, it is just nothing really exciting for your average Prius freak.

 

when it comes to EV's - you dont think that companies building factories that can build 1,000,000 hybrid car batteries, wont bring the cost down for EV's? Wont develop technologies for EV's?

 

wow!