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Lease v. Buy - Rapidly Changing Technology

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by ggood, Jan 25, 2009.

  1. ggood

    ggood Senior Member

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    There was an exchange of comments in another thread repeating the old saw about buying and keeping a car for 10 years in order to get your money's worth out of it, versus the desire to keep getting the latest and greatest car. That prompted me to want to discuss a thought I've had for a while now about whether leasing makes more sense than buying right now, due to what appears to be an extremely rapidly evolving period of EV and hybrid development, and new cars coning to market from many different sources over the next few years.

    In the past, Toyota has not made lease deals on hybrids very attractive, presumably because they were in short supply and/or Toyota was trying to make back research and development expenses from the early adopters (kind of like the computer world). However, we now live in a time where a new lithium battery plug-in Prius is just a couple of years away (not counting the limited fleet testing models coming late 2009), and there are suddenly lots of other hybrids and electric vehicles coming to market soon, from a variety of traditional and non-traditional manufacturers. On top of that, the other electronics in the cars are also just now really starting to take off, evolve and make full use of the computerized possibilities. The cars coming to market are going to bring a lot of new tech, and that tech is going to rapidly evolve and improve, akin to the go-go pc years, when you had to keep getting the latest thing every year to keep pushing the hardware and software harder and faster.

    So, based on those assertions and premises, shouldn't we consumers be more interested than usual in leasing our cars? In order to take advantage of these trends and circumstances, and create a stream of income for rapid new development, shouldn't Toyota and other car manufacturers heavily promote leasing and make much more attractive 1 to 3 year lease options available for these new cars? Lease cars taken back could be pushed to other markets like Mexico, and cause rapid uptake of hybrid and EV technologies in those other markets.

    As a personal example, I've been waiting for 2 years to replace my '97 CRV with an acceptable hybrid option. Sorry, neither the trucky Escape or the Highlander low mileage, expensive V6 meet my criteria. In that time, Toyota has come out with new non-hybrid models of the RAV4, the unsatisfactory highlander and now their new Venza (basically, a Camry wagon, oops, "cross-over sedan"). Since the auto press is convinced a hybrid Venza is in the works, I'd rather find a good lease than buy. Since I'm also interested in having a Prius again, I'd be trading in my 2007 HyCam, which by traditional economic and/or environmental standards is not a good plan.

    Anyone here have other thoughts, comments or opinions on leasing and marketing in this hybrid/EV/techno age?
     
  2. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    CAVEAT: I really don't know anything about this. That said...

    The decision whether to buy or lease is not solely one of how long you plan on keeping the car. Leasing frees you from the hassle of selling or trading in at the end of the lease, but it also "frees" you from getting any money for the car. You'll be required to do all scheduled maintenance, and the lease cost will take into account the depreciation on the car.

    Do the numbers: Cost of lease over the lease period vs price of the car minus resale value. Factor in whatever it's worth to you not to have to sell the car. My gut feeling is that you'll pay more for the lease, than buying the car and selling it later.
     
  3. auricchio

    auricchio Member

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    As for the technology argument, if you had posited this for the first ninety years of the automobile's existence, you would have been terribly wrong. Nothing major changed.

    Even the Prius has not changed much in the almost ten years since its introduction in Japan.
     
  4. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Leasing is always more expensive, unless you have some sort of tax write-off. For example, some business like to lease because it is an expense instead of a capital investment. Other than that, the only way for you to make out on a lease is if you know more about car values than the leasing company. I'm going to guess that they are pretty good at it, or they would be out of business.

    Tom
     
  5. ggood

    ggood Senior Member

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    Somehow, I don't seem to have made myself clear. I'm not asking the simple question of whether leasing is better than buying. I understand it doesn't make sense unless you can write it off as a business expense or you really really like to have a new car every couple of years and are willing to pay out the nose for it. Nobody makes money on their cars (normally) - they just pay less in the long run if they buy and hold them a long time. It has especially not made sense to lease hybrids from Toyota because they seem to always set the depreciation factor too high. Also, I would have exceeded the mileage limits on any lease I would have entered into.

    My point is that with rapidly changing technology, it gives a greater incentive, need or desire to have the next new thing every 1 to 3 years. Maybe more people would like to lease under these circumstances, and maybe it would be in the car manufacturers' best interest, and in consumers' best interest, to encourage that higher rate of turnover by making more attractive lease programs for individuals, or in computer software parlance, moving to a subscription fee basis.

    The movement to more and more sophisticated electronics and safety features, and to EVs and more and better hybrids, seems like real change to me, even if the internal combustion engine is still in the mix. It feels and looks like we are in a period of rapid changes to car tech, and the market structures need to adapt to that change. It is remarkable that a company that pioneered just in time inventory management for production is still using such a patchwork, antiquated system for wholesale and retail distribution, and the inefficient warehousing of cars and trucks.

    In my personal experience, there are cars like the 2010 Prius and the Hycam I already own that I am dead certain I will not want to hold for 12 years like I've held my '97 CRV, because there are more and better options and choices coming that will meet my needs better (like a hybrid Venza and/or an plugin EV small commuter car).

    What I'm really asking is whether other people are feeling the same quandry and whether anyone else thinks shifts in market structure to accommodate and accelerate change are appropriate. If so, what else might work besides making better lease deals?

    For example, going to mostly internet based sales systems perhaps? Why the heck do we need car salesmen for anyway. Just pay someone an hourly wage to babysit test drives and handhold the computer phobes, and let the rest of us order over the internet, fill out our car loans over the internet, and pick up the car on a Saturday.

    I assume a lot of people would argue this is all a terrible idea and would lead to unnecessary waste of resources and overproduction. On the other hand, maybe we need this rapid development right now and are in a period when less developed counties can absorb such overproduction, if it is priced right.
     
  6. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Basically you are saying you want to turn over your cars on a more frequent basis. The information about technological advancements is there to justify your thoughts, but is irrelevant to the underlying assertion. It comes back to the same issue: is leasing cheaper than depreciation. The answer will be no, unless the leasing company makes a bad bet.

    You see, I think the posters replying to your OP did understand your question and did answer it. The fact that you feel compelled to upgrade your car more frequently is understandable with the rapid improvements in technology, but the net result is no different than making a random decision that you like to buy a new automobile every year evenly divisible by two. Regardless of the motive, you have to ask yourself whether it is cheaper to buy and sell, or to lease.

    Maybe your real question has nothing to do with leasing. Perhaps you really wanted to ask if others feel a need to upgrade more often due to technological advancements. If you ask that question, you will get a different set of answers.

    Tom
     
  7. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    The other downside of leasing is that if something really good
    *does* emerge, the car companies can choose to take it away again.
    Look no farther than the EV-1. So for some of us, the word
    "lease" is a red flag no matter what legalese you wrap around it.
    .
    _H*
     
  8. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Okay, I think I understand your question now, and my answer is that I do not think it is in the car makers' interest to offer better lease deals. The reason is cash flow and resale of the used cars. When a car makers sells a car it gets the full price up front, or its finance department gets a loan contract that commits you to pay, regardless of what happens to the car, with pretty severe disincentives for you to back out. But when they lease, they only get monthly payments, and then they are stuck with a used car that they must sell at the end of the lease period. And if the following year's cars are so much better due to technological improvements, those used cars will be harder to sell and worth less.

    It's in their interest to sell, not to lease, and that's why they make it more expensive to lease than to buy.

    As for internet sales, I do not know present trends, but I'd guess internet sales are increasing, and I'd predict that internet sales will continue to increase. The reason for brick and mortar showrooms is that people want to test-drive a car before buying it. I had to drive a Prius from Saturday night to Monday morning before making up my mind to spend more money on a car than I had ever spent on anything in my life. (This was before I had as much money as I do now, when the only house I'd ever owned was an 80 year old farm house I'd paid $20,000 for.)

    For the present, a lot of people will want to drive a car before buying. But for people who know what car they want without driving it first, internet sales will grow, probably eventually putting showrooms out of business, just as Amazon and B&N are putting local bookshops out of business.
     
  9. ggood

    ggood Senior Member

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    Yep, I want to be able to flip cars more rapidly if things like an EV SUV with a 600 mile range and base cost of $15,000 come on the market, without feeling like I'm destroying my pocketbook or the planet.

    Yep, thoughtful responses like Daniel's are what I was looking for.

    Still wondering if there isn't room for some marketing innovation in the auto industry, and more room for moving hybrids to less developed markets. For example, there are people experimenting with going carless or just with 1 car, by doing a monthly lease fee arrangement, where cars are made available for short or long trips on an as needed basis. One simple thing Congress could do is take the manufacturer volume restriction off the hybrid credit, so we could get credits on Toyotas again.
     
  10. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    I think it will be a while before a 600 mile electric SUV becomes available for $15,000. Personally, I think the best thing Congress could do would not be tax breaks. I think the best thing would be government-sponsored research into better battery and/or capacitor storage, with the patents going into the public domain so anybody could build the resulting devices. Kind of like open-source software: open-source technology. But where a handful of computer enthusiasts can write a sophisticated program and put it under the GNU license, battery technology is going to need big bucks to develop.
     
  11. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    +1, no, make that +100.

    Tom
     
  12. auricchio

    auricchio Member

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    That's certainly a great goal, but---as Daniel implied---the manufacturers cannot make it attractive for you to do so unless they sell the cars outright.

    I think the only reason for car leasing is to increase production, because of the turnover of cars by lessees. If there weren't profit in it, manufacturers wouldn't bother. So if you were able to get your wish, so would thousands of others, and the leasing would soon go away...
     
  13. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    If you are going to have your vehicle for 4 years or less, you should take a very good look at leasing. Depending a on a couple of variables it usually makes sense for car "buyers".