Honda Insight - My First Impressions From the Auto Show

My only comment to this debate is: if, any American company had copied the Prius when it was first released, perhaps they would be in better shape. Although not relevant to the 2010 Civic, from time to time I drive my wifes 2006 Civic ( non-hybrid ) and am always surprised at its performance, logical arrangement of controls and a really super fast heater. This is our second Civic, which I picked up for $16K, a very good price at the time. Although I like the Civic I'm addicted to the Prius.

 

I was a passenger in a fine old 90s Honda Odyssey last night--with 150K miles, and still going strong. Hondas just run forever. We agreed 4-door hatchbacks like the Prius, Insight and Fit are just about the most practical size vehicles out there for small families.
I guess the Insight is the hybrid version of the Fit? The latter is really much like the old Civic in size, since the Civic has gotten larger over the years (inevitable once the marketing people get involved in a model). If Honda can price the Insight in the high teens--below the Prius--they might have something, especially if new government rebates kick in.

Unless gas prices climb again, the government will have to offer some real incentives for people to buy hybrids--like big rebates for hybrids and taxes on ICE cars. The volatility of gas prices has damaged the car industry (they were left unprepared thanks to the government's inaction on mpg limits). And now, low gas prices conflict with the need for reduced gas consumption due to global warming. Quite a pickle for the government and the car industry.

 

I wholeheartedly agree.

We HAVE to get more people to drive low emission vehicles particularly those that have a demonstrated high FE potential.

• The 2G Prius FE potential is established and it is good for 60-90 MPG in a city cycle and and 50+ combined.
• The 2G HCH is also established and is good for 70-90 MPG on a highway cycle and 45+MPG combined.
• The 2G Insight has shown its FE potential at the hands of our Wayne Gerdes and many other less capable drivers, and should provide almost the same as the HCH-II on the highway while slightly bettering it on the urban cycle.
• The 3G Prius improves in all the right areas and I am certain that its highway FE potential will be class leading especially in North America where people often do a lot of highway driving.

Please note that I am talking about "no big effort" FE potential, instead of "just drive it". For regular examples in mediocrity we have the EPA and the traditional lead foots who cannot get more than 40MPG on any of the above cars.

Folks, the high FE/low emissions hybrid selection as is, is still too small and we have a long, long ways to go. We need more vehicle selection not only in features and capabilities but pricing and affordability too. This is way more than what Toyota or Honda combined can provide and the worst thing we can do is biker about the smaller stuff these two offer while being dwarfed by the challenges that lie before us.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

Overall I agree with your general thesis on getting John Q Public educated on Hybrids. But your quotes on present day MPG figures are way out of line and very optimistic. A HM can obtain these figures by good technique, driving slow 22-40MPG, perfect conditions, hopefully a hill down on the way AND a hill down on the way back. ( Topographacally impossible) And of course maximizing regen and using wisely. The public in general will not do this and in the real world should not. We all have to keep up with the flow. I too can get 95MPG for the first minute on a downhill roll, after tanking up. But only for that one minute, then the averages catch up. And average is what we are talking about. 60, 70 and 90 MPG, Never! not for a whole tank, and not for 1071 miles ( 90mpg X 11.9 gal ) Even 60mpg X 11.9 is quite a feat and impossible for the average Prius driver. The public will come around, by necessity.

 

Understood.

But, I don't think it is out of line at all.

Please note that I mentioned FE potential and with that in mind, it is also why the newer Toyota and Honda hybrids now have an "ECON" button.
All these ECON buttons do is place the vehicles into the most efficient profiles for the average driver to use... actually in a way that is pretty similar to what many eco-drivers and hypermilers have been doing for years. No joke here.

But really, can we meet the numbers I mentioned regularly?
Meeting the lower values should not be a problem and many Prius and HCH owners demonstrate that on a regular basis. The top values definitely require regular blessings to achieve and retain but they are still not impossible for some. We have very well known members in the Prius community who have spent many years demonstrating simple methods and technical aspects of the Gen2 Prius that make it a one heck of a super fun car.

So while it has been proven over and over again that the average "just drive it" person is oblivious and unable to leverage the car's inherent capabilities to achieve the best FE, I still applaud Toyota and Honda's efforts for recognizing and making this FE potential exploitable by a greater number of people and not just those who understand their hybrids the best.


Cheers;

MSantos

 

Just for the heck of it... here's another review about the new Insight.

Warning, this review has a lot more detail than most you've read thus far, but in exchange you'll get a pretty good perspective regarding the FE potential.

2010 Honda Insight Preview

Cheers;

MSantos

 

FE Potential..............OK. I'll go along with that. Thanks for posting the impressions on the Honda, very detailed.

 

there is only one reason why any car has a "superfast" heater and is because every second its running its wasting a "super" amount of energy not devoted to getting you to your destination.

so i would hardly brag about wasting excessive energy

 

I don't care what a car looks like. (Well, okay, I think the Scion xB looks like a refrigerator on wheels.) I care about what it does, how well it's built, its reliability, how clean it is, its FE, the usability and volume of its interior space, its handling, etc., etc., etc.

My 1989 Honda Civic wagon didn't give me a minute's trouble during the 15 years I owned it, except for a dead battery when I returned from several years overseas.

As a company, I much prefer Honda. Honda treated me like royalty. Toyota is worlds above GM, but does not compare with Honda. I was very sad to switch from Honda to Toyota, but Toyota just came out with a much better car. The Insight II is a cheaper car, aimed at a different market segment, and you cannot build a Prius and sell it at the price of an Insight. So, sure, it's less car. And since I can afford a Prius, that's what I bought. But anyone who does buy an Insight, or any other Honda, is going to be delighted with its value for the price, and the service and respect they get from Honda.

Honda is a great company. Toyota has a better car if you can afford it.

Not entirely true. My Xebra has a superfast heater. And it wastes no energy, unless heatig the cabin is itself "wasteful." I don't know what kind of heater your Zenn has. But I know it is not wasteful either.

I turn my heater on high, and at zero Fahrenheit I have to turn it down to low in 5 minutes. At zero Celsius I have to turn it down to low in 2 minutes, and turn it off from time to time. (Truth in advertising: it's an after-market heater. The stock heater is less powerful.) And there's no engine burning any gas. Ever. Of course you knew all this, but maybe there's a lurker reading this thread that hasn't thought of this aspect of an EV: instant, efficient heat.

 

If I did an EV conversion I'd like it to use a reverse cycle heat pump for heat. Maybe heating from the electric motor. That's efficient!

 

umm well the Zenn heater sucks... at least that is what i have been told. i am not a heater type of guy. heck i drive around with the windows cracked in winter to keep them from fogging up but then again, i dont live in Spokane either.

 

Hi all,
On Jan. 5th, Honda officially announced the new Insight in Japan.

New Insight - Honda Japan press release (Japanese only)
Green Car Congress: Honda Insight Hybrid Goes on Sale in Japan on Friday
edit:
Honda Worldwide | February 5, 2009 "All-New Honda Insight Hybrid Vehicle Introduced in Japan" (English)

I visited a dealer to see the Insight. The new facts from the press release and my observations are...

- Cd value is 0.28 (2G Prius=0.26 and 3G Prius=0.25)
- The Civic Hybrid-II has an electric motor supplement for the A/C compressor used during the engine is off, but the Insight doesn't have the feature.
- The 1.3L Civic Hybrid-II engine has the three stages of valve timing (low-rpm, high-rpm and cylinder idle mode), but the Insight engine has only two stages (engine run and cylinder idle mode).

I see only degeneration of technology on the Insight, but I see a lot of innovations on the 2010 Prius.

Anyway, a dealer staff gave me a minicar.

Ken@Japan

 

DAM KEN!! i am sick and tired of you getting all the cool techie perks.

u are ordered to move the advanced technology and innovation mindset of the Japanese to American Manufacturers ASAP!!

 

Absolutely true.

However, the pack's energy density is higher on the new Insight which is in part why the module count and # of cell/module have been reduced. So that is a technical improvement and other than the packaging and instrumentation, there's really nothing else that represents an improvement.

In the other hand, the 2010 Prius has so many improvements that the differing missions and goals of each vehicle could not be clearer. So... I guess there are no surprises and no direct comparisons worth making.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

Toyota is going high tech, more luxury direction and Honda is going low tech and economy box direction. With the US and world economy in the tank, I think Honda has more hind sight and be more successful until the economy turns around in 4-5 years.

 

My understanding is...
HCH-II uses 158.4V pack to drive the 15kW motor.
Insight uses 108.8V pack to drive the 10kW motor.
That's it.

Ken@Japan

 

Since each module has 8 cells, the power output per module is up roughly 30% compared to the HCH-II. With this, the new Insight sports a decrease from 11 to 7 modules which makes it ~18% smaller and a ~29% lighter.
Yes, the voltage is lower but the energy density is higher.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

My understanding is Honda uses 12 cell(14.4V) modules.
HCH-II:11modules:132cells:158.4V:15kW_max_motor:95A_max_amp
Insight:7modules:84cells:100.8V:10kW_max_motor:99A_max_amp
Then, 99A_max / 95A_max = only +4% improvement since 2005.

Anyway...
Insight is smaller and lighter than HCH-II, then MPG number becomes worse.
2010 Prius is larger and heavier than 2G Prius, then MPG number becomes better.

I believe everyone knows which vehicle is more innovative.

Ken@Japan

 

Hi Dave,
Thank you!

Would you please find a job in the US for me?
I would like to live in Beverly Hills, CA.

Ken@Japan