Plug in Supply Site now shows LiFePO4 info

Alway read the fine print.
Just happened that ThunderSky offers only 1 year warranty.

 

Does the Plug-In Supply system accept energy from regenerative braking? My understanding is that the Hymotion system does not?

 

Good one. I didn't even see the product comparison page.

 

Not sure, but unlikely. The Hymotion software spoofs the original traction battery to always show full charge so that the HSD draws current rather than turn on the ICE. I doubt this Li-Fe company has written a workaround.

 

I think they are also spoofing the SOC using the CAN-View and BMS+. But I think it also accepts regen. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

doesnt matter what the technology is, the range obtained per KWH of charge is not near 10 miles.

i the plug in site has VERY realistic range figures, figure 4-5 miles per KWH of usable storage.

also, if looking at lead acid and living in the northern tier, i would think twice (and if that doesnt change your mind, think 3 times) before buying.

lead acid is VERY Dependent on OAT. your range will be HALVED in ambient temps below 30ºF. so if you need 10 miles, live in the northern tier, plan on having a minimum 25 mile stated range, otherwise you will be parking it all winter (granted, with gas to fall back on, this is all just scare tactics but point is, there is much more drawbacks then most people realize)

now there are several types of lead acid. AGM and gel types are somewhat less temperature dependent. in the above scenario you will still lose a third of your range and this is personal experience talking here

 

Dave, Thanks for that information. I did not realize the lead batteries would be that low on power. I think we've had 1 day in the last month over 32f My hymotion Lithium batteries are giving me the same range as warmer weather.
Chris

 

well not low on power, just cant store as much in colder temps. for my Zenn, i have AGM lead acids and i get 30+ miles in the summer (best temps for them is around 85) but only get 18-20 in winter.

flooded lead acid would not even do as well as this

 

Thanks for the Plug-in Product comparison chart.

I was leaning towards the Plug-in 10.2kw-hr system over the Hymotion because I wanted to retain the spare tire. However, I note that the Plug-in 10.2kw-hr system loses the spare tire, just like the Hymotion does, and ends up costing $5k more than the Hymotion system, as well. So, the nod goes to Hymotion, based on cost (without regard to the apparent problems with the Hymotion system chronicled in this forum), since both claim an EV range of 40 miles.

On the other hand, the Plug-in 4.3kw-hr system achieves the same EV range as the lead system (15 miles) and both systems retain the spare tire, but the 4.3kw-hr system costs $3500 more than it's lead battery system.

This would suggest that the nod go to the lead system, but you have to replace the lead batteries every 2 years (the expected life of the lead batteries) at a cost of about $3200 per replacement, so if you are going to keep your car for more than 4 years, the better choice is reallly the 4.3kw-hr lithium battery system at $8.5k, because the lithium batteries will purportedly last the "life of the car" (even though the battery warranty is limited to 1 yr).

The only problem for me is the limited 15 mile EV range of the 4.3kw-hr system. Most of my driving is beyond that range and the value of that system in gas savings would be very limited and far less than the cost of that system.

So, I guess I'm back to deciding whether I want to get a Hymotion system (which requires me to lose the spare tire and face the potential problems reported about the system here), or just forget the whole thing until Toyota (or some other company) comes out with a PHEV system that provides sufficient range (at least 40 miles), without losing the spare tire, at a "reasonable" price" backed by a factory warranty.

Oh well . .. when in doubt, I guess it's sometimes is better to just do nothing at all.

 

The extra $5k is hard to accept for the 10.2 kW-hr Plug-In Supply vs the Hymotion 5 kW-hr system. However it appears from responses in this thread that the Plug-In Supply offers a true 40-50 mile pure electric range as well as the use of regenerative braking. It is unknown whether there are peculiar problems with the Plug-In Supply system because of a lack of data though a number of issues have been raised on PC for the Hymotion system. I do appreciate that the Plug-In Supply system displays charging status via a LED as opposed to the brake lights and that the springs are included. I'm not understanding on the pros and cons of the two battery chemistries and why the Plug-In Supply LiFePO4 might be preferred over the Hymotion Li-Ion batteries.

So, who's going first?

 

I believe the batteries are ThunderSky which is made in China. They only offer 1 year warranty. They do not have store or office in the states. There have been reports on the internet that ThunderSky will not fulfill the warranty for faulty battery replacement and let the buyer/user hangs high and dry.

The LA and 4.3kWh Li battery option do not include shipping and installation. Assuming $200 shipping and $1000 installation, the $8500 price tag turns into $9700. It is better off with the Hymotion with 3 years of warranty.

The 40-50 miles range is mix mode, not pure EV mode.

 

I would discount the warranty issue. Most warranty issues should arise immediately upon or after installation, well before the 1 yr limit, and I would hold the installer responsible for replacing the battery and getting reimbursement/replacement of the bad battery from mfg on its own. Otherwise, I wouldn't buy the system.

One other question about Plug-in, does one bad battery in the group render the entire system inoperable (ie., wired in series) or does it just reduce the power of the system (ie., wired in parallel) and, if the latter, how would you know that you have a bad battery at all -- is there a light or gauge that flags a battery problem?

Agreed, so long as the $10.4k for Hymotion includes installation. Does it?

Not clear which system you are referring to from your answer. Does this apply to both systems -- Plug-in and Hymotion or one or the other?

 

Yes. The $10,400 system from Hymotion includes installation and 3 year warranty. In addition, Hymotion's warranty promises to cover anything that Toyota might decline to cover because of the Hymotion battery.

Also, the Hymotion battery has been crash tested and already passed CARB approval in California.

 

Here is my take:

Case for Hymotion:
More commercial quality product backed by A123, who make some of the best Li batteries around. You get a better warranty, and I believe Hymotion's design is crash tested. Plug-in Supply is a bit more of a hobby outfit (albeit a very good one) by comparison, whose design is based on the cal-cars open source project (although Hymotion's architecture is pretty similar too).

Case for Plugin-Supply Lithium:
Cheaper per kWh (or mile) than Hymotion. Special mode for EV operation up to 52mph (pretty sure requires park and restart to start ICE). Like the pop-up design that retains the spare tire on the smaller model. Big pack comes with spring upgrade. Overall should be lowest cost to operate over time, assuming batteries hold up.

Case for Plugin-Supply PbA:
Cheapest upfront cost, upgradeable to small Li kit. High speed EV mode. Spring upgrade included.

A few observations/comments:

1. Thundersky did get a pretty bad rep for their first gen of Li batteries a few years back. Their second gen are now LiFePO4, and seem better. They also have sales reps contracted in US now, and offer 1 year warranty which is a big improvement. Jury is still out on gen2. Here's one example:
Elite Power Solutions

2. Thats said, last I knew Plugin Supply was using batteries made by PSI. Things may have changed though. Something along the lines of these:
Phoenix Silicon International Corporation -- LiFePO4 Battery Products List
Plug In Hybrid Electric Vehicle PHEV

3. Lead acid is cheapest upfront, but most expensive to operate in the long run. You may get two years out of the pack, but one or less is not uncommon. Robb is using a different battery than others, that should get a few more cycles, but I still think 2 years is optimistic. Battery replacement cost for PbA is about $1000-1400. I recently got a quote for the same batteries from the distributor for $43 ea, or $860 plus freight shipping. You also won't generally get as much range out of a 5kW PbA pack as you will a ~5kW Li-ion pack, due to the non-linearity of the Peukert effect. The capacity for lead acid battery is rated at a very low current, low enough that it takes 20 hours to discharge the battery. The current drawn from the lead pack in a PHEV is much greater than that, discharging the pack in about 15 minutes if it was continuous. Peukerts law says that the faster you discharge a lead battery, the lower its total capacity. In this case, the capacity can be reduce by 40-50% from ideal. NimH and Li have their own issues, but do not suffer from the same non-linearity.

4. Just to be clear Hymotion and the larger Plug-in Supply pack do not have equivalent range. Hymotion get 30-40 miles mixed mode, which is equivilent to 15-20 miles EV. Plug-in Supply gets 35-40 miles EV. So 50% more cost for at least double the range.

5. I'm pretty sure Plug-in supply no longer uses CAN-View. They (and Cal-cars in general) have moved on to a custom designed quasi-open source CAN Spoofing controller designed by Chris Ewert. You can see Robb's (Plug-in Supply) cleaned up version of that controller at the bottom of Steve Woodruff's autobeyours page above. This provides a lot more functionality and better performance than the original CAN-View implementation, but you lose the information display on the MFD. Chris and his bother Andrew are working on an open-source PC based information readout to add that functionality.
SourceForge.net: Cantop

6. No plug-in conversion is cost effective at this time, if all you count is the savings in gas. It will take a major auto-maker producing in high volume and gas going back up and/or a tax credit to make that happen. You have to place value on something beyond just dollars spent on gas to make it worth it to convert in the near term.

Rob

 

miscrms, I agree with 99% of your summary. The only change I would make is that the pure EV range of the Hymotion system is about 20 to 24 miles. I have done the testing personally.

My personal best for pure EV is 23 miles and I had some small hills.
My personal best for highway, at 55 mph on cruise control, is 43 miles.

I think "TheForce" actually achieved 50 miles on the highway.

Mixed driving is about 30 to 40 miles for a full battery.

 

Thanks for your "take" on the matter.

I agree that you can't make the conversion based on a dollar-savings basis, but the choices between the 2 systems is still muddled to me.

If in fact, the Plug-in 4.3kw Lithium system has the same pure EV range as the Hymotion, as you say (despite PeakOil's "personal best" of 23 for Hymotion), then I'm back to preferring that system over Hymotion because you can keep your spare tire and the overall cost including installation is about a wash.

The question then is 10-15 miles EV enough to justify the $10-11k installation cost. It's not for me, but if Plug-in could sell the 10.2kw hr Lithium system w/a 40 mile EV range for the same price and retain the spare tire, I probably go for it, but at $15k plus installation, it's too rich for me.

 

Theoretically everything should scale with battery size. The Plug-in Supply and Hymotion both use the same basic architecture, selectively paralleled LiFePO4 secondary packs with primary battery SOC spoofing. Therefore to the first order their efficiency in getting power from the battery to wheels should be the same. The numbers quoted above are highly dependent on driving style, route and weather conditions but for any given set of conditions, having 2x the battery should give you 2x the range. There will be second order effects, related to how effective the BMS is, the internal resistance of the batteries etc, so in real life there will be some differences but they will be hard to judge without doing a side by side comparison.

Rob

 

Can you run the heater and/or AC in a pure EV mode within this range? Are any functions non-operational when in the EV only mode?

 

as far as the question of lead acid verses Li... not sure i understand the question...we have one type that is half the cost and half the amount of charge cycles and...wait a sec!! Li has more than twice the charge cycle life expectancy...now if its slightly more, or maybe "only" 3 times more then maybe there would be a question as to what type of battery to use. but that is not the case.

we are talking TEN TIMES more cycles... lead acid sure aint 1/10th the cost ...in aint even 1/4th cost.

then we look at temperature differences... if there is any change in seasons as far as temperatures go, lead acid range can be lowered as much as 50% in normal cold weather... Li has something like a 1% drop in range in temps as low as -40º... lead acid reportedly wont work at all at that temperature.

also, its my personal belief that lead acid is simply more difficult to charge properly to allow a long life. and

FINALLY, you are driving a Prius, you want it to plug in and you cant be doing it to save money on gas, you are trying to save the environment and using a battery pack that has 4 times more heavy metals verses charge life is going against the main reason why everyone is doing this.

heck, i use lead acid, but i got a Zenn, its not supposed to be a $25,000 high technology wonder... its a glorified golf cart with electric windows and power door locks using 100 year old electric motor technology. if i had planned on keeping my Zenn for any extended period of time, i would have done what daniel did and upgrade to LI batteries as well, but i dont so i didnt.

as far as who to choose, well, Hymotion has a LOT of cars out there, many on this site, so there is not many secrets with that option... my question... who has the Plug in option and how is it working for you?

 

Yes. But I have found that it really depends on if the car has warmed up from regular driving. If the engine already has heat from having run, then I can maintain the EV mode and use the heater to warm the cabin.

If the engine is stone cold and I turn on the heater while driving in EV mode, that scenario might trigger the ICE to come on.