water pollution

Well, I think for our purposes here, what you've said will suffice. You're an engineer of sorts, but what kind? I know that you have done a lot of work with refineries in the past, but what other types of plants/systems have you consulted on? Are you a consultant or do you work for a company? You seem to know a lot about a variety of industrial processes so I'm curious about your background.

 

Us vaguely sinister types just *love* it when you talk dirty ... I mean, use correct terminology

 

I drive a choo-choo

Just kidding!

I'm a consultant, I presently contract for a large, global engineering services corporation. I have a degree in chemical engineering and another degree in computer science, all courtesy of my 10 year stint in the Army (98K Signals Intelligence)

I have provided consulting to ILEC and CLEC (Landline, cellular, Lucent certification, Nortel certification, etc), radar systems (Phased array), satellite communication, municipal water and wastewater, petrochemical and chemical plants, utility co's (Coal, diesel, natural gas, hydro, and nuclear), steel mills, and - finally - building integration, even the cursed BACNet (No offense to Tony)

I now prefer petrochemical work, primarily due to the higher fees. I am also considering going back into military and government consulting, due to the same reason

Hopefully, all that will keep my vaguely sinister mind occupied well into ripe old age. Otherwise, I’ll have no choice but to become an evil genius and enslave the planet. I’m sure I’m kidding about this part

What I like about PriusChat is the very wide variety of background we have onboard. Pretty much the entire spectrum, so to speak

Getting back to sour gas as a fuel source, one has to balance the equation to determine what portion of the VOC’s and H2S you want to burn, and what portion you want to deal with as retentate.

As a hint, the large industrial reciprocating engines are usually fitted with post-treatment catalytic converters. The usual catalyst material is usually quite effective in dealing with the residuals. Turbofan powerplants may also be fitted with catalyst post treatment, but there is a large increase in complexity and cost

For example, the smaller microturbine units from Capstone are very low cost with maintenance, as the bearings are air supported. They can be fitted with post treatment catalysts to deal with a wide variety of residuals

 

And I always thought you were a cab driver. They know everything don't they?

 

Very true Pat. When I still had the condo, the "regular" cab driver who took me to the airport was from India. I eventually found out he had a masters in Electrical Engineering. Driving a cab in Winnipeg, due to the language barrier - that sucked

 

How could the language barrier impede him? Everyone knows that engineers can't speak, let alone write, in english.

How do you think an SOFC would fare chewing on sour gas? My impression is that they're more efficient than turbine systems and I know that they can consume a variety of hydrogen rich fuels. I have no idea what effect the H2S would have on the health of the system. I'd love to see more SOFC installations at these landfill sites because more energy can be extracted from the same amount of gas. SOFC and stationary power generation are one area in which I think fuel cells can and will make a valuable contribution to our energy situation.

So you were a signals puke, huh? I was 19D (Cavalry scout), 13F (Forward Observer), and finally 13P (MLRS Fire Direction). I already had a 4 year degree (Geology) from a small liberal arts college so our good uncle didn't make a direct contribution to me education.

 

Why after meeting you does it not surprise me you were a forward scout Tripp?

You just seem like that kind of out there person, not content with hanging back with the crowd.

 

Sad but true, a surprising number of highly qualified engineers and doctors from India and China are running cabs here in Winnipeg. A waste of talent

As you may be aware, Siemens is doing a lot of work on SOFC CHP systems. This is very interesting technology, but still very much in its infancy

For example, there is the issue of the very high temps and very long lead-up times to operation. Work is being done to reduce startup to the order of a few minutes, but realistically several hours are required

Sulfur would absolutely kill a SOFC. You're back to scrubbing/membranes and the retentate off that.

Actually, an ideal combination would be the SOFC as the first "stage" as the very high internal temps make the SOFC self "reforming." THe residual gas can then be used to run a turbine.

The combined cycle efficiency of a SOFC and turbine promise efficiencies +85%. When you consider the "waste" heat from such a process would be put to good use in a wastewater treatment plant, it's a win-win

Unfortunately, for the moment, the cost of a SOFC pretty much rules it out except for research and development. I'm confident there will be a lot of progress in this area

You may be interested to learn that the Pentagon is considering replacing the obsolete "Huffer" carts by using a fuel cell process. There is still a lot of work to be done in this area, as it's pretty hard to beat the proven reliability of a standard Huffer cart

Note: a "Huffer" is an Air Start machine. For aircraft that don't have onboard APU's, or broken APU's, the Huffer has a high pressure hose that is plugged into the bleed air manifold. A second connection is made to the DC power bus. The Huffer is then used to start the turboprop or turbofan motor

You can also use one jet to "jumpstart" another jet, using the high pressure hose routine. This is a dangerous procedure that can also damage the aircraft, used only if no other options are available

Hmmm we have similar backgrounds. I actually started off as a 33W but promoted quickly. I did all the repairs including aviation and aerial.

When I left to return to college full time, that was how I got my Computer Science degree. I don't think they call it a 33W anymore

They must have liked me, I guess I have a warm and charming personality (HA!). I met the eligibility for 98K and quickly promoted in that area too

I actually like 98K work. Am presently considering opportunities as a civillian contractor in that area

 

Sadly my military training is utterly worthless in the civilian world. I went into the Guard as a means of exploring the possibility of a military career. I decided that I wouldn't make a good officer, esp a combat arms officer as I'm not decisive enough and I tend to be consumed with self-doubt when dealing with complex/important projects, at least when ultimate responsibility lies with me. I think I'd have made a good staff office, but being a commander would have sent me to bedlam pretty quickly.

If I were still in track land I'd love to have an FC APU sitting on top of the 577 instead of the typical Mogas ones (you know, the ones that privates always put diesel in and... ta-da! You've got a smoke screen generator!). The noise signature is bad and couple that with all of the bloody antennae on top of the track and the pucker factor goes up. Nothings screams "I'm important, kill me please." like 4 antennae on or around your track (which is why remoting the bloody things as OE-254s is the way to go if you are staying still for any amount of time).

I like the idea of the SOFC/turbine. I thought about that too, given the crazy temps that SOFCs operate at. I do know that Sierra Nevada brewing has 4 250 kW SOFCs that they process biogas with on site (anerobically digested yeast sludge I believe). Perhaps the input gas is not very sour in that scenario.

Why is sulfur bad? Interacts with and degrades membranes or some other reason?

 

Sorry to hear that. I'm a Type A and generally have no problems being shoved into authority. I don't let it go to my head, that's for sure

The hardest part about Command level authority is the very real possibility you will be directly responsible for sending somebody off to die. Trust me, that is VERY hard to deal with.

A normal, sane human being *should* be bothered by sending others off to die. The ones that appear cold, perhaps even *happy* about such scenarios, are scary people.

As far as career relavence, I promoted quickly and was able to find a lot of employment potential on the civillian side. I doubt I would go back in, but am considering civillian contracting/consulting for the government

Or how about just a normal diesel generator that runs off the same JP-8 as the 577? I never did understand such a logistical blunder as having two separate fuels on the 577.

Insane

An aero-derivative APU, such as one from Allied, Sundstrand, etc, would also have been appropriate. The smaller aero APU's work fine in all the expected tactical temps, from Arctic to desert. The newly refitted Huey's (UH-1Y) use a Sundstrand

That would be the ideal place to use an SOFC. The leftover mash stuff would produce high quality gas

That's a good question

Sulfides have a pretty bad effect on many catalyst materials. For example, the requirement for ultra low sulfur diesel fuel is due to how sulfur buggers up the selective catalytic reduction after treatment device

Some pretreatment, eg potassium permanganate, has been shown to especially help Pd-based catalyst beds. This oxidizes the sulfides to sulfates, which are fairly benign to Pd catalyst materials. Remember that sulfides can be H2S, HS-, or S2

Whether adsorbing or sorbent technology, there are costs associated that can make the application cost prohibitive. Consider that in a typical refinery, in catalytic reforming, a catalyst substrate is usually Pt, K, Al2O3 or Pt, Ba, Al2O3 and can be quickly rendered "dead" with high sulfur content, eg +300 ppm

In a Claus process, to recover sulfur one can use resistant catalyst, such as mixed TiO2 with special, proprietary surface treatment. I can't get into what this proprietary hydrophobic coating is, due to an NDA

I've been answering the phone and a couple of emails during this post. I still hope it makes sense

Ok, getting back to the SOFC. The normal operating temps are beyond the range that is survived by most sorbents. Recall that the "electrolyte" is a solid ceramic substrate. The anode and cathode are made of materials like Ni, Zr, La, etc, all have various problems with S.

There is work being done with thin layer sorbents that will adsorb H2S and other S poisons. If I recall, the sorbent is a very thin layer oxide of La and Ce, combined the La no longer is impacted by S and instead works to readily adsorb S compounds.

If cost can be kept low, and regeneration of the sorbent simple (Eg, no acid washing or other dangerous stuff) then the SOFC will truly be ready for "mainstream"

 

Lucky you. I had a lot of glass ceilings until we went to MLRS. I loved tube artillery, but in a General Support battalion there is just 1 E-4 slot in the entire battalion! The LNO section is comprised of an E-3, an E-4, an E-7, and an O-3 so we had a pile of E-4s in LNO that were all trapped. These were 13F positions. When we went to MLRS suddenly the ceiling was gone and I was one of the first new E-5s because I had loads of points. If I had stuck around I'd have gotten my E-6 pretty damn fast. I couldn't "hang" with the neo-cons and left when my second tour was up.

Yeah, just having generators that ran on JP-8 would have been nice. It's one of those mysteries of logistics I guess. I'm much more of a participating leader. I learned how to be an effective NCO, I had to run a platoon for 3 weeks by myself in a real mission (granted, not in country somewhere) without even a 2lt (which, given our LT, was a good thing). It was a good experience, but quite exhausting.

Interesting comments about the SOFC. While I'm not a fan of FCVs I do think that FCs have a role to play in stationary power and I hope that they can achieve widespread use in the coming decade.

 

That's kind of typical though. I know I was lucky as both a 33W and especially as a 98K, but those also seem to have been "hot" positions to be in. A few guys still in claim those positions are either currently stop-lossed or about to be stop-lossed

That must have been ugly. It really does depend on what MOS you gravitate to

It wasn't that bad when I was in, mostly a good bunch of guys. I also have heard that has all changed now

More than likely, a senator or congressperson got his home turf plant making those mogas gennies a sweetheart deal.

Oh I bet it was interesting - and exhausting. Some folks thrive on that, I can take it or leave it

I really do think SOFC's with turbines or microturbines will be ideal for CHP. THe ideal location is a wastewater treatment plant. I would also think that animal manure (Swine barn, cattle barn etc) would be ideal

 

You know, the lads that I served with were, in the main, good people. They had a different worldview to mine, but that's what makes life interesting, right. One of my best friends when I got deployed was a mormon. The few mormons that I had met up to that point were most certainly "not my cuppa". This guy made me pull my head out and drop a stereotype that I had settled on. It was really the first step in my mellowing of animosity towards religious folks. I still take the piss out of 'em, but in a more good natured way now. Horses for courses as they say.

I could see SOFC/Turbine systems being quite useful on feed lots (I'd rather see feedlots go away, but that's something else altogether) and dairy farms... as well as processing dairy waste.

 

You have to keep in mind I enlisted in the early 1980's, spent a 4 year stretch, took almost 4 years off (Worked on my degree, contracted for Honeywell), then went in for 6 years. I was done in '97

When I was in, especially the first stint, I'd describe everybody else as the Entire Spectrum. A few of us were the geeks, we naturally hung out together, but got along with almost everybody except the handful of losers

Again, based on folks I keep in touch with, that has all changed now. Uncle was looking for a certain group to enlist, and got them. Some folks I knew who were highly intelligent, motivated, and dependable were more-or-less forced out, due to not having the same worldview. Very sad, we lost very good people due to that

My folks and I moved to southern Utah, near St George, in the early 1970's. Have you ever run into polygamist Mormon's? Let's just say this: the gene pool is VERY shallow due to that, more like a small puddle

For now, the additional cost of SOFC makes this cost prohibitive. A regular internal combustion engine, say a heavy duty Waukesha or Wartsila, is ideally suited to running on s*** - little to no scrubbing required. Capstone makes microturbines that also promise to be useful on this sort of gas, but scrubbing and/or sorbent technologies are necessary to protect the GG (Gas Generator) rotor section

 

I went in in '98 and got out in '04.

My last unit (where I had the pleasure of serving as an E5) was defo the spectrum, but obviously with a conservative bent to it, no doubt. Still, there were some excellent soldiers. In my platoon the majority of NCOs had 4 year degrees. One had a MS (he is a civil engineer on the outside).

There was also a fair amount of rubbish, particularly in the younger soldiers. Still, there were some very good ones too. I left because of world view. I wasn't willing to waste my life doing something I didn't agree with (funny, that).

Yeah, there's that side of religion too. Hopefully, we're moving away from that sort of nonsense. It's slow, too slow for many of us, but there has been progress.

Without grant money you're right. The Sierra Nevada installation was subsidized by grant money. The important thing, I think, is that people are starting to look at waste in a different way and seeing economic opportunity where they were seeing bills before. I'd expect that SOFCs are sorta where solar was in the 1980's. I think it will move faster because the world is a very different place to the one of the 1980's.

 

You're a young whipper-snapper then

I went in with an Associates degree, and that seemed common back then. I actually received plenty of official encouragement to go a lot further with my education. Since Uncle was willing to make it happen, I agreed

It's my understanding this problem is a lot worse now

Oh, I do not know. The polygamists in southern Utah still dump 12-14 year old boys in downtown St George. Can't have pubrescent boys competing with dirty old men for the available young girls, can we?

I have no problem with that. It's important to do research into innovative new technologies, and that can only happen with grants and public funding.

I'm still amazed that human s*** and especially animal s*** (Cattle, swine, etc) is simply thrown out. Just running s*** through a digester gets rid of the vast majority of the stench, and methane can then be used in CHP installations.

Even without CHP, the methane is almost always a net energy producer, along with a net profit. ROI is usually under 5 years, commonly under 3 years

 

It's madness, ain't it? Talk about low hanging fruit.

Agreed.

It is. I had one problem kid in my section (but he was a commo puke, not an artilleryman ) when I was deployed. He was a "gangsta" type with a drinking problem. 2 DUIs and he wasn't even 21 yet. He wasn't completely worthless, but defo had alcohol issues. The other two kids were great, though I think one of them was pretty depressed and had some emotional issues. He was a good kid though.

 

Apparently a lot more of that type now. General discipline issues and "babysitting" are taking more and more time now

 

Indeed. That was one of the less pleasant aspects of being an NCO. Not that I'd change my decision to be one. Overall it was a good experience. Being an NCO, and in a good unit, made the guard far more enjoyable. My time as an E4 in HHB was pretty dismal, though I did get on well with my section mates. The CO and 1SG can really make or break a battery/troop/company (in my time in the army I never served in a company).

 

I know I was very lucky in that regard. Sounds like you got the more usual result