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Prius died - low fuel + CEL

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by lloyd, Feb 15, 2009.

  1. lloyd

    lloyd New Member

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    Hello everyone - this is my first post after 'lurking' for about a year. This forum has saved me a ton of money and hassle from my purchase decision to routine maintenance and driving habits. Now, I have a moderate crisis on my hands and I'm looking for opinions.

    My 2008, bought new last March, already has 35k and change on it. I commute 130 miles round trip 4 days a week, about 80% Interstate and parkway, the other 20% NYC traffic. On the drive in to work 2 days ago the Check Engine light appeared. I had one more day of work and resolved to get the CEL checked out after that.

    Driving home that one more night (it was 1am, as I work second shift) I went down to one square on the fuel gauge and got the Add Fuel indication. I drive to that warning once a week and I've always been fine if I stop for gas within about 20 miles.

    This time I got the "Triangle of Death" and the MFD Hybrid System Warning light (the car with an exclamation point) no more than 5 minutes after the Add Fuel warning. I got off at the next exit and walked for gas; put in two gallons.

    Tried starting the car a couple of times and the engine would spin up slowly for a few seconds, then quit. All of the orange warning lights stayed on in the car and it would not go into D or R or give the READY light. After the third try, the engine didn't even spin up, I just got the orange warning lights (VSC, etc.).

    I called for a tow; at the tow driver's suggestion we went to a gas station and filled the tank completely full because he suspected a fuel flow issue with only the two gallons having been put in. Filled the tank, same result; the gas engine would not even spin up, no READY light, car would only go into P or N.

    Today (Sunday) the car is sitting at the tow lot, waiting for the nearby Toyota dealership to open Monday morning, and I'm trying to piece together what happened. I have two theories after doing some searching and thinking, and I was hoping for some feedback from this knowledgeable community.

    Theory #1: I ran out of gas, then somehow depleted the 12v battery while trying to start the car with only the 2 gallons from the gas can. If this could be the case I may get a ride back to the tow lot (40 miles away from home) and try a jump start.

    Theory #2: There is some issue in the hybrid system that triggered the CEL the day before and manifested itself last night when the fuel quantity was fairly low.

    A little more supporting info: I filled the tank 440 miles ago at about 10.1 gallons. The MFD said the average MPG was 47.9. The Add Fuel indication lit up at 436 miles. After we towed the car to the gas station, it only took about 7.3 gallons (on top of the 2 gallons from the gas can.) Those signs would seem to indicate that perhaps some gas was still in the tank at the time I seemingly ran out of fuel.

    So, with all that wordy description out there - should we make the 40-mile drive out to where the car is and try a jump start? I only want to do that if it's likely to get the car running so I can drive it to my local dealership and have it fixed close to home.

    Thanks in advance for any help you all can offer.
     
  2. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I doubt you were out of gas and I doubt it's your 12v....sorry to say on both counts.

    The early CEL is the thing that convinces me there must be something else going on.
     
  3. CharlesJ

    CharlesJ Member

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    Sorry to hear your issues. Be sure to let us know what was discovered by the dealer and how was it resolved, thanks.
     
  4. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    usually a CEL is not enough to knock the car out of service completely- further evidence being that the condition that caused the CEL left your car drivable until other issues popped up on your way home.

    putting 2 gallons in the car wouldn't be enough for the car to register that fuel had been added.

    go back to the tow yard, disconnect the negative terminal of the 12v- give it about 30s and reconnect. this will clear the out of fuel code if you've got it. reconnect, attempt to start. if you drained the 12v you will need to be prepared to jump it, but make sure you connect up the terminals with the right polarity!!!
     
  5. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    I suspect you ignored advice from a lot of posters here to fill up at 2 bars on the gas gauge.
    Sorry this isn't a dig at you while you are down, I just wanted to use this opportunity to reinforce the reason for filling at 2 bars for other new and not so new members.

    I hope the posts of other PC members helps you to sort your problem.
    Good luck.
     
  6. lloyd

    lloyd New Member

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    Thanks for the tips so far, everyone. We opted not to pack up the family and make the road trip to try a jump start tonight - we'll have it towed to the dealership tomorrow and see what they think, instead. Of course I'll post what the dealer finds.

    galaxee - after I filled the tank, the gauge did show a full tank. Would there still be an sensor indicating out of fuel if this is the case?

    Regarding the fuel gauge issue alluded to by patsparks, that's the single biggest beef I have with the car. Sometimes, it sits on two bars for 50 miles. Others, it drops to one bar and "Add Fuel" very quickly. It seems like a step backward from every other car I've had, where the gauge and trip odometer gave me a VERY clear idea of how much range I had left on a given tank, and it's odd to be a problem on a car that is all about managing fuel consumption.

    As it is, for someone who puts on 500+ miles per week, artificially limiting my range to 300-350 miles would be quite an inconvenience. I'd never had a problem in the 35k miles prior to this event, probably 80-85 tanks. If the mechanic concludes the tank ran dry, I'll have to reconsider my approach to this.

    I'm sure a few people out there have run out of fuel (and you always feel doubly embarrassed about it when people see it's a Prius that's out of gas). Has anyone else had it happen so quickly after the "Add Fuel" warning?
     
  7. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Toyota heard and responded to this complaint and the bladder is gone in the 2010 and we've been told that the fuel gauge will be more reliable.
     
  8. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    once the code is logged, it's there until it's cleared. a code that's no longer relevant will clear itself after 3 starts, but your car won't start. that's where disconnecting the 12v comes in- clears the out of fuel code. but it will also clear your other code, whatever it may be.
     
  9. lloyd

    lloyd New Member

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    Well, not much to update yet. The dealership at which the car ended up has some of the worst customer service I've ever encountered. It took me 7 phone calls and 6 hours to get someone's name... lots of transfers to dead phone lines, anonymous voice mail boxes with no outgoing messages, etc. They told me a few hours ago it was in the bay, now I finally got a service advisor who said they never looked at it today, they were too busy with scheduled appointments, and they will "hopefully" get a look at it tomorrow afternoon.

    I tried to call Toyota to see if they could help hasten the process, but the Customer Experience Hotline is closed for Presidents' Day.

    So, no joy yet. The car's at a dealer I don't know who has little interest in helping me out and has already lied to me once about it today. Unfortunately my local dealer, whom I know and strongly prefer, is 45 miles away from this one and across a state line, so a tow is basically out of the question.
     
  10. paprius4030

    paprius4030 My first Prius

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    What dealer is the car at? We used to live in Danbury,Ct. Greentree Toyota had mixed reviews during the years we lived there, is that where you bought your Prius? Good luck and keep us updated.

    PS. Do you have AAA Plus, they will tow you where you want.
     
  11. lloyd

    lloyd New Member

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    I didn't really want to mention them, but the dealer is Toyota of New Rochelle. None of the towing companies I contacted would tow across the state line from NY into CT, so I'm not sure I could get that done even through AAA. (We let our AAA membership lapse a few years ago, unfortunately.)
     
  12. paprius4030

    paprius4030 My first Prius

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    That's ok we mention dealer names here all the time, both the good and the bad.
     
  13. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

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    Not to rub it in, but this scenario is the 2nd reason to have a ScanGauge. The trouble codes would be helpful. If you tried pushing the traction battery too far you would have gone below the two pink/purple bars--never recommended. Good luck. Please relay the detected codes.
     
  14. lloyd

    lloyd New Member

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    Well, I got it back today. According to the dealership, it was a defective mass air flow sensor. The car never ran out of fuel or had any other problems.

    Nonetheless, the dealer balked at reimbursing me for the tow. Looks like I'll have a fight on my hands.

    JimN, I've considered purchasing a scan tool and the Bentley book for the car; I've done so in the past. This incident will probably push me over the ledge to do so.

    EDIT: According to the invoice, the diagnostic code was "PO 101,3190." For what that's worth.
     
  15. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi Lloyd,

    Those MAF problems are sometimes linked to excessive oil level. The oil works its way up from the engine and polutes the hot-wires in the sensor. Over time the oil cokes onto the wires, and insulates the wires. So, the sensor reports no airflow.

    Another posibility is there was production debri within the intake system, that broke a wire.
     
  16. Mike Dimmick

    Mike Dimmick Active Member

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    It might help the dealer with diagnostics if they would transcribe the DTC correctly. P0101 = "Mass or Volume Air Flow Circuit Range/Performance Problem". P3190 = "Poor Engine Power". The Trouble Area table for P0101 simply says "Mass air flow meter". For 3190 there are a number of possibilities, one of which is "Mass air flow meter".

    P0101 indicates that the meter is reading unusually high or low. It triggers when the meter is outputting a high voltage (>2.2V) when the engine is idling at under 900rpm and is warm, or when the throttle is at least a little open and the air flow meter is outputting less than 0.4V (below 1500rpm) or less than 1.0V (above 1500rpm). Basically it's saying that the meter is reporting lots of air moving when there should be very little, or no air moving when there should be a lot.

    Incorrect air flow measurements will lead to incorrect amounts of fuel being injected, potentially leading to a too-rich or too-lean mixture, which may not ignite. (Emissions will also be higher than they should be - more NOx if too lean, more CO/HC if too rich.)

    P3190 triggers when the estimated torque that the engine's producing is less than 20% of what the HV ECU was trying to achieve. This likely again indicates a mixture that wouldn't ignite.

    The diagnostic manual for those codes is nicely recursive: both pages tell you to perform troubleshooting for other DTCs before this one. P0101's decision tree is incredibly simple, though: if no other DTCs are output, replace the mass air flow meter.

    My source: 2004 Repair Manual - see section 05, Diagnostics, which is a ZIP file. (Hope it doesn't get taken down.) The PDF for a given DTC is normally named CIxxxxx.pdf, but some files contain information for more than one DTC (e.g. cip3190a.pdf also deals with P3191 Engine Does Not Start and P3193 Fuel Run Out.
     
  17. lloyd

    lloyd New Member

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    Thanks for the additional info. All oil changes have been done by my regular dealer, but at 30k I did change my own engine air filter, though I was conscious of letting anything fall into the intake there. Has anyone heard of the mass airflow sensor just quitting outright? They didn't mention any contamination on the sensor, just that it was (in their words) 'defective.'
     
  18. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    The next time you have the opportunity (car OFF at least ten minutes and sitting on a level surface) check the oil level yourself. It could be revealing.
     
  19. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    I'm really hoping the MAF didn't just need cleaning, not replacement. Normal oil vapor from the PCV will eventually coat the MAF hot wires with a fine ash, and cause weird problems

    For example, on my FJ Cruiser, I noticed last summer it just seemed to be a bit sluggish, sometimes the auto trans didn't shift quite right. Did quite a bit of highway driving down to Rochester MN, as my dad was ill and he wanted to check into the Mayo Clinic

    Last fall, I cleaned the MAF in my FJ and in my Prius. There was little difference in how my Prius ran, but an immediate difference in how my FJ ran.

    I've attached a shop manual print of the Prius MAF. Have also attached a pdf of the MAF before/after cleaning. You will need Adobe Reader 9 to properly open this document

    The little bulb in the MAF is not the actual airflow sensor, it's the intake air temp sensor. The MAF hot wires are buried inside the sensor, in a venturi-like chamber

    Do not use brake cleaner or carb cleaner to clean the sensor, you will destroy it. There are specialized hot wire cleaners, and it doesn't take much just a few spritz applications.

    CRC Industries Automotive Product Detail

    It's easy to remove the MAF sensor. Disconnect - wiggle off - the electrical connector. Remove the two small philips head screws, taking care not to drop them and lose them.

    Gently wiggle the sensor clockwise and counterclockwise while pulling out. There is an o-ring and with age the MAF can stick, so don't yank on it and don't use a tool to pry it out

    Up to you if you want to clean the TB. I'd leave it alone unless you are experiencing problems
     

    Attached Files:

  20. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Oops, can't post the pdf of cleaning the MAF. I've exceeded my 50 MB attachment limit