Comparison Test: 2009 Toyota Prius vs. 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI

That would be a Herculean effort based on what I've seen of your postings. You aren't worth it.

I can, but with you it is pointless. I'm not going to pound my head against the wall trying to convince you. I've read enough of your posts to realize that it is a waste of time.

So have fun spinning.

 

Are there clubs for Jetta owners? Where do I meet these girls?

Tom

 

Nice dodge. You could provide data but you won't because you can't be bothered with me? ound:

You can't provide data so you won't. You are plan and simply WRONG but refuse to admit it. This is remarkably similar to a thread a while back about the Prius dash. I foolishly insisted on a position based on my memory which turned out to be wrong. In the process I looked really stupid. However, at least when presented with overwhelming evidence I at least admitted I was wrong. Granted, much later than I should have. You seem unable to admit you are wrong even when presented with overwhelming evidence.

 

I've gone around and around with this guy enough that I refuse to do so again.

 

Why would we talk depreciation without taking into account the full picture? Cost of ownership?

Jetta driven 15k per year for 5 years, 38,069.
2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI - SOP 27/08 4dr Sedan Cost of Ownership
Prius drien 15k per year for 5 years, 34,272.
2008 Toyota Prius Cost of Ownership

That analysis also indicates that the TDI would depreciate faster then the Prius.

 

Rob

We have Canadian hillbillies up here who do the same exact thing.

If these folks think clouds of black smoke are harmless, even *good* for you, I have a simple solution to the problem: when they're sleeping in their trailer at night, run a hose from the exhaust pipe into their bedroom, and fire up the motor

jay

 

Our sailboat has an old fashioned single cylinder marine diesel engine, which is perfectly suited for use as an auxiliary engine. It is ultra reliable and very economical. My only real complaint is that darned black diesel soot. Our engine doesn't spew visible soot. Nevertheless, the back end of the boat gets coated with a nasty black film which is hard to remove, and if you motor with a slight following breeze the diesel smell is obnoxious. Do that for a whole day and you have to wash down the entire topside.

Motoring a sailboat is a special case of using an engine. The engine runs for hours at a time at the same speed and load.

Soot is an inherent problem with diesels. Good engineering has reduced the problem, but it is still a fundamental issue.

Then there is the problem of a diesel fuel leak in a confined space, but that is a another topic.

Tom

 

My focus on depreciation is a response to Shawn's statements:

• (Post #82) "if you ever need to resell or your car is totalled, the TDI really takes it on the chin."
• (Post #84) "I did a quick KBB check on 2003 TDI sedans and compared to a 2003 Prius. Difference was still ~$4,000 in Prius favor."

As you can see from my posts above this simply isn't the case in any KBB comparison of the two. I also personally take issue with Shawn's accusation that I've "got a history of distorting such figures to suit your case" (post #91). This is not the first time he has made such accusations and I personally take issue with him accusing me of lying. (Again, I take accusations of "distorting figures" to be a accusation of lying.) I have laid out my data for all to see and he has decided to ignore me instead of admitting he is wrong or presenting anything that supports his opinion. That is his issue.

Now to your post. Yes, the Prius has a lower cost of ownership than the TDI. As I said before, a base TDI will cost more to own than a base Prius (post #114). I've also pointed out the Prius has a lower Edmunds True Cost to Own than the TDI ( post # 106). Miscrms presented similar cost of ownership information in several posts and I don't dispute it. I do dispute the claim that a base Prius is equipped to the equivalent level of features as a base TDI. In my opinion, the TDI comes much better equipped as a base vehicle. A simple cost of ownership calculation ignores many reasons a person or editor may prefer one car to another. Cost of ownership is only one part of a purchasing decision.

As to your information for AOL: Yes, it seems AOL calculates a lower depreciation for the Prius than the Jetta TDI. As I said before, both the Jetta TDI and Prius have very low depreciation compared to gasoline cars. (post # 103) In that post I also said that the difference between to two isn't anything to get excited about.

As a matter of detail, you are comparing a 2008 Prius to a 2009 TDI. I know that a AOL "cost to own" isn't available for the 2009 Prius yet but it would still be best to compare the same model years.

 

Get in line buddy. I saw her first

 

Currently, the only way to properly deal with the soot is after-treatment, and after 2010, urea injection. Not sure how well urea injection will work in a climate that can dip to -40 in winter

I frequently travel to the EU on business. It's easy to spot late model diesel cars with black soot stains around the exhaust pipe. The white cars are the worst for this, a very noticeable soot stain

Do gasoline engines also put out PM's? Sure they do. Compare a similar displacement gasser to a diesel, huge difference though

Some diesel fanboys point out the black residue on modern gassers. The reason why we notice this now is due to the lack of leaded gasoline. Back in the "good 'ole days" with leaded gas, the exhaust pipe would be either white or gray, not black unless running too rich

 

Just to be correct I believe that urea injection deals with NOx, not soot. Soot (pm) is dealt with in a particle trap and catalyst. The new VW TDI is the first car available in the US that seems to have done a pretty nice job in this regard. The emissions are not as low as the Prius, but are lower than a lot of standard gasoline models at this point. My old WRX for example was pretty atrocious at Bin8. Whats more, at WOT in open loop mode (which is where you spend a lot of time in a WRX) there are definately particle emissions. I've never seen soot on my Prius tailpipe (probably because I drive it pretty sedately) but the WRX pipe was pretty nasty.

Rob

 

Diesel particulates are handled with after-treatment. This is done with a particulate filter though, not urea injection. Urea is for NOx emissions not particulates. Diesel vehicles with particulate filters emit very low levels of particulates. (Generally in the range of 0.001 g/km.) VCAcarfueldata.org.uk - Search Results - Further Information

It is still possible to buy diesel vehicles in Europe without particulate filters so it will take awhile for the cars you speak of to disappear from European roads. (I travel to Europe as well and eastern Europe in particular is full of diesel vehicles without DPF's)

Particulates are also a issue for gasoline vehicles, specifically those that use direct injection. Beginning with the Euro 5 emission regulations that go into effect Sept-09, gasoline vehicles with DI engines will be tested for particulates. (Currently only diesel vehicles are tested for particulates) Emission Standards: Europe: Cars and Light Trucks

 

We handle diesel particulates by gluing them to the back of our boat. The wet exhaust helps with this process.

Tom

 

JSH, I would disagree that the base TDI is better equipped. Its differently equipped, and you apparently place more value on the features in the TDI, but thats not going to be the same for everyone. The touchscreen for example is an expensive standard option that many of us take for granted. You may prefer the buttons on the TDI, but the touchscreen is a higher end feature in a general sense. You've also commented that you have learned a good deal about driving style from the feedback given on the MFD, which to me makes it invaluable. That matters a lot more to me than adjustable seats, but then I don't find the seats uncomfortable. With two small children, I also find the smart key to be the best thing since sliced bread. It still annoys me that my house doesn't unlock itself when I put my hand on the door knob. I agree Toyota's option packaging can be tiresome. On the other hand you can get dealer leather for about $1000, and there are cheaper ways around most of the issues you raise. You'd have to go the same route if you wanted real leather in the new TDI.

Rob

 

I believe thats referred to as sequestration

 

Yeah, I remember that, it did take a long time didn't it?

 

It is true that we seem to value different features.

I have learned from the MFD consumption feedback. I find the instant MPG and average MPG to be the most useful feadbacks. Both these features are part of the trip computer that is standard on the VW TDI (2006 and 2009). The hybrid power split features are specific to hybrids and I find the Honda Civic Hybrid display gives more information in a simpler format. A scangauge can be added to any late model car with OBDII for a modest investment and provide far more information than the MFD. Of course you know that I am no fan of the Prius MFD for climate and radio functions. I'm also not a fan of wheel mounted buttons.

I do like the SKS key but you have hit on a key issue. When I leave my house and come home I have to have my keys out to lock and unlock the house. When out on the town with my wife I open the door for her then walk around the car and get in. Nothing has changed from manual key, to keyless entry, to SKS except I don't have to reach into my pocket to get a key out. So for me the SKS is more a novelty then a necessity. (I don't have 2 small kids though)

I didn't know that dealer installed leather is so inexpensive for the Prius. As to real vs synthetic leather I'll take synthetic any day. After my experience supplying leather wrapped instrument panels to Mercedes I want nothing to do with real leather for automotive interiors. It is difficult to get a consistent product, hard to keep clean, and very easy to damage. In my opinion Mercedes synthetic leather options are vastly superior to real leather. (Again, my opinion)

 

Yes it did. A humbling experience, no doubt, but also a learning experience. Notice this time around I've provided data instead of going by memory.