Happy Birthday, Mr. Darwin!

What would you expect from politicians that give more money and attention to "improve the life in prison for the inmates" but regularly trim school funds.

Is it maybe because their chances of going back to school are nil but going to prison........

 

:doh:

Now why didn't I think of that? It all makes sense now ....

 

No, at least not consistent with theory in its scientific sense. A big part of the problem is that these words have different colloquial and scientific meanings.

I don't even like it when Dawkins describes the "God Hypothesis" as a hypothesis because, by nature, it isn't testable - and the 'acid test' of a scientific hypothesis is that it has to lead to predictions that can be tested.

 

Darwin's main book on the subject is entitled "On the Origin of the Species."
No use of the word 'theory' there. Though certainly evolution is referred to as a theory in scientific circles these days--the culmination of Darwin's observations and hypotheses borne out by experiment.

But 'theory' means something different to the scientist than the layman. Evolution is accepted science--a theory proven by experiment. To the layman, 'theory' means unproven--theoretical, not established. Hence, a misunderstanding. That is the crux of the problem--the use of the word 'theory.'

 

They try to disguise it with the term 'Intelligent Design'. A well funded religious outfit called the Discovery Institute has a 'wedge' agenda to completely remove the teaching of the theory of Evolution and replace it with Intelligent Design in the hope of returning the world to pre-Darwinian times when religious dogma ruled civilization. They got a huge boost under Bush, too, when Bush publicly declared that both Evolution and Intelligent Design should be taught in US schools. This went a long way to establishing Intelligent Design as a legitimate scientific theory in many people's minds (certainly among Bush's followers).

The problem with Intelligent Design (or it's real, religious term, Creationism) is that as it's mainly derived from the bible's Book of Genesis, it has no more basis in science than astrology. For instance, Creationists maintain that the earth was created in a six-day period 6000 years ago, unlike most legitimate scientists that believe the earth was created around 4.5 billion years ago, while there's a 65.5 million year difference in time between the existance of dinosaurs and human beings. That's why if you go to the Creation Museum located in Petersburg, KY (near the Cincinnati airport), you'll find dioramas with human beings cavorting with dinosaurs (in one exhibit, a Triceratops and a Stegosaurus are shown aboard a scale model of Noah's Ark). If it wasn't so frightening that many people actually believe this sort of thing, it would be hilarious.

Fortunately, a famous, recent 2005 federal court trial in Dover, PA put a major 'monkey' (sorry about the pun) wrench in the plan when the local school board tried to do just that. The irony is that the judge that ruled against the school board (it was a trial concerning the separation of the church and state establishment clause in the US constitution) was a church-going Republican Bush appointee.

 

Yep, it's only a small step to regressing to the middle ages, when we had Church sponsored torture of heretics. It would be interesting - to say the least - if The Rack, the dunking chair, the skull crusher, and other barbaric medieval things came back into vogue

The first ones into such torture machines would be those with more than hillbilly education, eg college educated folks.

Say, Pol Pot tried that, didn't he? Actually seemed to work for him too

 

When meeting someone that does not believe in evolution, change the subject to dogs. See if they agree that dogs have specific breeds that were created by.....well.......selective breeding. Or ask where one catches Yorkshire Terriers in the wild. Remember to be nice. You're trying to educate, not insult.

Animal breeders made it clear to Darwin that most of time breeding for specific traits was hard and a LOT of culling was necessary to get the final result. This clued Darwin to the fact that most variations were not beneficial, and nature provided the culling of unproductive variations.

 

That's what I like to call the "reversed Homer Simpson" effect: it's not funny because it's true.

Happy (belated) birthday Mr. Darwin.


great thread. :clap2:

 

It's a sad commentary on our society when belief trumps reality. A big clue that you're dealing with 'believers' is their use of the term 'Darwinism'. Evolution is not an 'ism'; it's science. The other ploy is to argue that evolution has 'gaps', so it must be false and religion must be true.

 

Hey watch it! The majority of teachers and school board members are liberal democrats.

Lumping me with liberal democrats is offensive! (My ancestors are from Scotland, they'd be considered Hillbillies.)

 

Aye. I've tried this tack meself since it's so bloody obvious and is something that most people can relate too. It doesn't really seem to work, but perhaps it takes people a while to mull it over and modify their POV.

As far as medieval torture is concerned... we've already seen water boarding make a comeback. Hopefully we've altered course and are back on the opposite tack now...

It worked for Pol Pot for a little while...

 

No offense to you personally. I'm sure you'd agree our "edumacashun" system is rapdily devolving to Lowest Common Denominator

 

Water boarding would probably be a fun day at the amusement rides compared to the truly horrific torture during the middle ages

Wouldn't take much of a collapse or disaster on a global scale for "civilization" to sink downwards and embrace torture

 

It's already happening, Jay. Whatever you do, don't watch the evening news. It gives me nightmares.

 

Since my dad is elderly and mostly homebound, he sits parked in front of the tv all the time. Yes, it gives him nightmares. I paid extra for a channel called Deja Vu and he can now watch reruns from the 1960's-1980's, a much simpler time

I personally do not watch the news, it's scary bulls***. Events in the world are so out of control, the last thing I need to concern myself with is something I have zero control/influence over. Ignorance is bliss - in this case

Have you seen the trailer for the movie 2012. I like how it asks "what will the governments of our planet do to prepare 6 billion people for the end of the world?"

Then we have a dramatic scene of water gushing over the Himalayas, washing away a Tibetan monastary. The screen fades to black and they answer their question

"Nothing"

Yeah, that sounds about right

 

Oh, for the love of monkey doo!
Seriously, do any of you who believe in evolution actually read scientific evidence opposing evolution? And those of you who don't believe in evolution, how do you justify denying scientific evidence of evolution? Does anyone see where I'm going here? There are MOUNDS of testable scientific theory that supports both sides. I posted this previously, but I'll do it again to raise the ire of both sides (giggle, giggle):

The earth created in six days (remember, He rested on the seventh day)? Wow, that’s crazy talk! Who could possibly believe a book that states the earth is created in six days when all of science (that is testable and measurable and provable) claims not only did it take a few billion years for life to develop, but that the earth itself is approximately 4.5662 billion years old (1) and the universe is 13.73 billion years old (2). But yet, any devout Christian or Jew will tell you that the Bible is infallible, so what gives? Is it part truth, part fiction, or just a bunch of stories that we have to pick and choose which is which?
The Bible itself states, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard (3).” That’s a powerful invitation and an exhortation to employ what we observe through nature and science and learn about God and how he works; how he created what is observable and what is testable.
But bear with me a bit and I will convey a few other statements from the Bible that we may ponder its scientific merit before taking an exegetical approach to that seemingly preposterous story of the earth and all that is in it being created in six 24 hour days.
The Bible also talks of time having a beginning (4), which we know before the Big Bang there was no time. The Bible also speaks of the universe having a beginning (5); the universe was created from that which was invisible (6); and the universe is expanding (7), all three of which are proponents of the Big Bang theory. One can also conclude from Biblical statements the creation of matter and energy in the universe has ended(8) and that the universe is winding down and will eventually wear out(9). But wait, there’s more! We can deduce that the number of stars is practically countless (10); every star is different (11); Pleiades and Orion are gravitationally bound star groups (12); and, the earth is controlled by the heavens (13). There are yet numerous other Biblical statements that coincide with well proven scientific proofs concerning cosmology, earth sciences, and biology, all of which are observable and testable. But what about that Genesis “story”?
If it is to be claimed by me as a Christian that the Bible is infallible, the Genesis story must present itself in a way that is not contradictory to all the scientific data that has amassed and the very statement God makes in Psalm 19:1-3. For the sake of brevity I will only touch upon the six 24 hour days
In Hebrew the word for day is yom,. The problem with this simple translation is that it does not include every translation for this simple yet diverse word, yom. Yom actually has several translations according to the context in which it is used. Yom “…has three main meanings; daylight portion of a solar day (i.e., sunrise to sunset), a 24-hour solar day, or a long period of time. Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew definitions list definitions referring to long periods of time such as ‘year,’ ‘lifetime,’ and ‘time, period (general)’.” (14) Even in today’s modern English we have this use of the word “day”; the day of the dinosaur, or, back in my day. But, one may argue, there is still an inconsistency with the Genesis story because it states, “…and there was evening and morning a day. Clearly this would bring us back to the definition of a 24 hour day. The words “morning” and “evening” also have different translation according to the context in which they are used. Boqer can be translated as morning; dawn; early; or morrow (15) and erev may be translated as dusk; night (16). “‘Evening’ has the additional meaning of ‘ending’ and ‘morning’ and ‘erev’ has the meaning of ‘dawning’ or ‘beginning’. The order of ‘evening morning’ is not insignificant. Each day described in Genesis 1 is completed by ‘evening’ (ending) juxtaposed with ‘morning’ (beginning). So, the usage fits the interpretation of the ending of one day and the beginning of the next. (17)” So, armed with both modern scientific theory and laws, and a more thorough understanding of three pivotal words in Genesis, we can give the text a richer and more scientifically plausible interpretation. We must also take into context that the Genesis creation is scientifically accurate in its procession creation; creation of the universe and our earth, Day 1 (or Period 1); separation of waters in the atmosphere and liquid water, Day 2; oceans and dry land appearing through tectonic activity and then the creation of plants, Day 3; the appearance (not the creation of, there is a different Hebrew word used here that means “let there be”)of the sun, moon, and stars due to atmospheric changes allowing clouds to form instead of one large water vapor canopy, Day 4; the appearance of water animal life, birds, and land-dwelling animals, Day 5; an additional appearance of land animals and last, human beings, Day 6.
“…and there was an end and a beginning, a first period(epoch).”
So, in conclusion, I believe we must take a deeper approach to the understanding of Biblical language and its application in the context of scientific evidence. Did I change the meaning of the Genesis story? No. I have simply as so have others far more advanced in their understanding of Hebrew and science used more appropriate translations of the original Hebrew text. Could God have created everything in six days? Sure He could have! What would be impossible for a Being that can design the laws of physics and take a point of energy so infinitely small and dense and allow it to expand into everything we see and don’t see? The overwhelming scientific evidence points to a God that works through naturalistic laws, is extremely patient, and, orderly. It is far more a miracle to me to understand the universe starting as a Singularity and for everything to be based upon one particular element, i.e. hydrogen into the bizarre and fascinating universe we live in.
“The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard (3).”






1. C. J. Allegre, G. Manhes, and C. Gopel, “The Age of the Earth,” Geochemica et Cosmo chemica Acta 59 (1995), 1445-1456
2. “New Image of Infant Universe Reveals Era of First Stars, Age of Cosmos, and More,” http;//www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/0206mapresults.html
3. Psalm 19: 1-3
4. 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2, 1 Corinthians 2:7
5. Genesis 1:1, 2:4, Isaiah 42:5
6. Hebrews 11:3
7. Job 9:8, Psalms 104:2, Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah 42:5, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:12, Isaiah 48:13, Isaiah 51:13, Jeremiah 10:12, Jeremiah 51:15, Zechariah 12:1
8. Genesis 2:3-4
9. Psalms 102:25-27
10. Genesis 22:17, Jeremiah 33:22
11. 1 Corinthians 15:41
12. Job 38:31
13. Job 38:33
14. Richard Deem, “Does the Bible Say God Created the Earth in Six 24 Hour Days,” http:// godandscience.org/youngearth/sixdays.html
15. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, H1242, 23
16. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, H6053, 91
17. Richard Deem, “Does the Bible Say God Created the Earth in Six 24 Hour Days,” http:// godandscience.org/youngearth/sixdays.html
Other great reading: Why the Universe is the Way It Is, by Hugh Ross, Ph.D., Astronomy, University of Toronto; Origins of Life, Fazale Rana, Ph.D., Chemistry, Ohio University, and Hugh Ross, Ph.D., Astronomy University of Toronto; Our Beliefs | Reasons to Believe

 

Nonsense. God is not a testable hypothesis. You can define a day to be whatever length you want - the bible has nothing whatsoever to do with science.

 

There are some damn good quotes you can take from Beowolf or Lord of the Rings to support Creation, as well as the Bible.

Together that gives you three of the best works of fiction available to us mortals.

 

With monkeys so prevalent in the news these days how about a little monkey business of our own?

RMCF Articles - Mutation Rate Problem

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