Happy Birthday, Mr. Darwin!

Lord of the Rings...wasn't that written by J.R Tolkien, close friend to atheist turned Christian C.S. Lewis? As I recall, Mr. Tolkien was very influential in Mr. Lewis conversion.

The fact is there is no other piece of ancient literature in existence that accurately describes the order of creation as does the Bible. God never said evolution doesn't exist, people do. When someone can explain how homochiral sugars can form naturally, or, overcome the astronomical improbabilities of genome sequencing in a minimum complexity organism containing only 250 genes (by the way, the probability of simultaneous occurrence is 10 to the 18,750 power), maybe then I'll believe in a God-less, or naturalistic origin to life and the universe.

But all in all, I enjoy the banter and difference of...opinion/fact or whatever we shall agree to call it!

As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Proverbs 27:17

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't do much of a job itself.

I agree that things seem rather improbable and at this point, the more answers we have the more questions it brings. That's good though, keeps pushing us as you point out. While I don't believe that any of the religions of man are correct, I don't completely rule out the possibility of some larger consciousness. I remain agnostic because I find all of the possibilites that have been put forth as fundamentally unsatisfying. As the truth is revealed I'll change my philosophy and positions on various subjects affected by the new knowledge. I think the most important thing for everyone is to prevent the neurons "calcifying" if you will.

 

Amen to that, Brother!
You are correct in your opening sentence that the Bible does indeed not make a great piece of scientific literature. What would ancient Israelites do with quantum physics? Science was simply not a pragmatic explanation to life's mysteries back then. But, nonetheless, there are some amazing insights to the universe located throughout this ancient text. Expanding universe, time having a beginning, the universe being made from that which is not seen. These truly are profound statements,especially in light of we didn't come to actually know these statements are true except in the last 100 years.
Unfortunately Christians themselves have presented the Bible for mockery by being so close minded and not doing their homework when it comes to exegetics and patience in bearing out "exciting new scientific theories." Evolution, clearly by observable evidence does have a place in history. But, there are very large portions of that same theory that are astronomically improbable in a naturalistic origin. I wish I was a man of great faith, but I'm not. I believe because of what I do know about science.

 

+1

 

For the record: God does not have to be a testable hypothesis for there to be overwhelming scientific evidence alluring to His existence. Also, I myself, did not define a day to be whatever I want, I used the original translation of the Hebrew word yom used in context to its surrounding words.

Furthermore, you quoted me out of context. I stated, " The overwhelming scientific evidence points to a God that works through naturalistic laws.." That's not the same as, "The overwhelming evidence points to a God."

 

No, not really...well, just plain no, actually. "It" seems so impersonal, and "she"...I don't know, why did you have to go and ask that one?

 

If there is a God, and He were a She, then wouldn't that make God a drag queen?

I'm not really into that, just thinking out loud. Ok, maybe that's dangerous, back to your discussion baaaaaaaaaa

 

My objections to the Bible are as follows:

It's not a particularly useful document, unless you're interested in the early, brutal history of the Jews. By that, I mean that it doesn't put anything forward that other religions didn't/don't also posit. JC's worldview, while profound in the middle east, were already quite old by chinese standards of the day. So, while there are some good messages in the book, they're a.) not new and b.) wrapped in a lot of useless fluff which brings me to the next point.

The OT, in particular, is dominated by a petty and vengeful god that acts a lot like a rather nasty child. The story from Numbers, of God commanding the Jews to slaughter the inhabitants of a village and then being angry when they don't have the "faith" to do it properly is pretty disgusting. That's not the word of God, that somebody passing down an oral tradition that highlights the violence of that region (and sadly, nothing's changed).

And to be fair, I think that most of the world's religions are not any better because they were all invented by man... they do contain some commonalities that are good, but the practitioners always seem to get caught up in the details. The human mind seems to crave certainty and the rigid rules of religions cater to that... and the religions benefit from that too.

So there may well be a higher consciousness... perhaps we're like fish... we can only view the world through a certain prism. Just like the fish, which has no knowledge of QM or Reletivity, or distant galaxies, I have to wonder what we might simply not be capable of perceiving. But that's a rather defeatest POV and so we just have to press on and strive for a more perfect knowledge, all the while knowing that it will never be perfect... Heisenberg showed us that that's not possible.

Which leads me to another point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the god of the Bible seems a rather deterministic kind of bloke. At least, he seems to be a fan of it anyways. However, the universe in which we live is anything but deterministic. There seems to be a bit of a contradiction. Now, perhaps that's just modern Christians and their ideas of "God has a plan for you", but I think it's rubbish. If there's a god, I seriously doubt that he/she/it really wants to micro-manage the universe. How boring is that? What's the point of creating a universe where you already know every aspect of it? Besides, there's no free will, so if there's such thing as Hell (which is also a thoroughly ridiculous concept, see the bit about petulant child above), then this god is simply manufacturing souls to launch into it. Perhaps Hell is contected to a large turbine and it's nothing more than the engine room of the universe! Hopefully, it's an IGCC plant. They're more efficient.

OK, long rant. Sorry about that. At the end of the day, it's horses for courses. Everybody has to figure this out for themselves, and if there truely is a point to the universe, surely that's it.

On a more serious note: Jayman's a tranny. Na na na na nah!

 

Tripp,

Now you're asking the really difficult questions! But hey, why not? If God really is such a caring, loving god, then why shouldn't there be answers to our questions? I think its great that you know enough about the Bible to even have those questions. So, without further adieu, here are the answers: STOP asking questions you heathen troglodytes, God's smarter than us!

Wasn't that a great answer?

Seriously, you're not content with that answer and no one should be! Bear with me a little bit. Christianity is very different, in fact it is in many ways a preposterous religion. I can't give you all the answers, no one can. But I will give you some wonderful resources that will answer most. The Bible is singular among ancient literature of the world's religins that teaches us, implores us, to objectively test before believing. The Apostle Paul taught that no teaching is to escape testing, "Test everything. Hold on to the good." 1 Thessalonians 5:21

Here are some links to answer some of your questions, I think that you should really explore the whole website. Not only will you have some answers, but you will be able to confront those religious folk who think they do. Enjoy!

Evidence for God from Science

Thou Shall Not Kill: Does God Violate His Own Commandment?

Did God Commit Atrocities by Ordering the Killing of Entire Cities of People?

copycat

 

No, but I did have an interesting encounter with one in a bar about 6 years ago

Imagine the scene: Gorgeous blonde woman (So I thought) with long flowing hair, having a shot at the counter. I mosey up to the empty stool next to "hers" (That should have been warning enough right there, hmmm?), and tried to engage in chit chat

Me: Hi there

"Woman:" Why, hello there (In a voice *much* deeper than mine

Me: Eep!

I'm strictly a "live and let live" guy. But there should be warning signs, eg a mandatory yellow and orange high visibility vest on her back

"WARNING: GUY PARTS UNDERNEATH"

Or something like that. In the end, we both agreed it was funny, agreed the Toronto Maple Leafs were a weird name (Leafs? Leaves??), and I moseyed right out of there

 

Sorry, I had no intention of quoting you out of context. I was trying to make it clearer what I was responding to. This time, I left all of your words intact. Also, I did not mean to imply that you personally were directly defining the length of a day. I meant that it makes no difference how long the day is - it neither adds nor detracts from the creation story.

I honestly don't see any 'overwhelming scientific evidence' for the existence of a christian god, or any other gods. I don't see any evidence at all, in fact, let alone any that's scientific or anywhere near overwhelming. Many people believe very strongly, but that is not evidence, and doesn't make it true. There's faith-based, and then there's fact-based. They are two very different concepts.

 

That's where the Navy has better training than the Army. Navy training points out that modern surgery still has not completely solved the following differences:

1) Hand shape. This is quite easy to spot, but what guy looks over a gal's hands? Only those that have been trained!

2) Adam's apple....although some guys don't have much to begin with.

3) Voice....but same comment as above.

4) The "I found out almost too late" .......

 

I completely agree.

 

That caught my attention. How do we know this?

 

D'oh! :doh:

Have you ever seen Trainspotting?

 

Helio,

I found the second one (so far the only one I've read) to be quite weak. By the logic put forward we should have slaughtered ever German when we invaded because they were "corrupted". That's rubbish. Christ himself would have disagreed with God's dispicable behavior. And besides, what of the peoples of the new world? Were they uniformly horrid as well? That seems extremely unlikely. The whole thing smacks of revisionist history (with the Jews playing the role of the nazis... hmm I'd never thought of it that way before. That's f*@k'd up.)

So the solution to this was to violently kill these people? The solution to violence is... wait for it... more violence? Somebody who has the capability of create a functional universe with an immensely complex set of natural laws could, one would hope, come up with a more creative solution than that. If that was the best he could do we truly are screwed.

The flood itself is obviously nonsense. It couldn't have literally happended. If it's a figurative passage, then what is the point of the story? Watch out, or god will bring vengence on you!! I think the Buddhist view of consequences is far more useful.

The NT seems much more useful, but there again mettling has polluted the message. JC in John is a bit nastier and anti-semitic than the JC of the other Gospels. He's at once the "Prince of Peace" and then a threatening "I'm the only way to salvation, love me or die" kinda bloke. It's as if he's Jeckel and Hyde. When he stays on message he says some good things and those Christians that focus on the love message are fine by me. They get "it". The christians who want to worship JC while at the same time are violent, intolerant plonkers are... well let's just say they aren't my cuppa tea. In a way, they've made a false idol of their own god (in that they want to worship him while at the same time completely ignoring his message).

 

Briefly, like you care a flying fig what I think, I'm going to post a thought anyway.

If we follow the lifestyle and all those people around us also follow a lifestyle that is promoted by the bible then there will be heaven on earth for us. No locks on doors everyone gets along, you know all follow the same set of rules about how we interact with one another and everything is sweet, sharing happy life. Now if we steal, cheat, lie, degrade and belittle each person around us and they also do it to us that would be hell, hell on earth.
I don't for a second believe in a heaven or hell you go to when you die but I believe if people were nice and supported one another we can have heaven here. That's what the bible tells us, the rest is fables to back up the rules and a pile of church marketing tools.

God isn't all around us, the thing people think is god is your conscience, your brain and your thinking. I am god, I am god to me because I control my destiny. I have a plan for me. I determine whether I live in heaven or hell.
I can prove all this but as god I made a rule for my religion, as it is what I wish others to do for me. I have a rule not to tell others of my religion, and I would like others to do likewise. It is a religious rule which stifles marketing so I doubt my church will be all that big. Why does no other church with that rule grow very big? Natural selection!

 

Always look for the Adam's Apple! Dead give away!