water pollution

I find it hotter when he talks about oxidation/reduction.

As for giardia lamblia, I've tried that and don't recommend it.

Tom

 

That's an airport in New York, right?

 

That's a good question and I will try to explain this in a way that doesn't get too deeply into chemistry

Whether you use chlorine gas, sodium hypochlorite, or calcium hypochlorite, once dissolved into water you will form hypochlorous acid and hypochloric acid

That is

Cl2 +H2O - HOCl + HCl

The hydrochloric acid disassociates to hydrogen and chloride ions

HCl - H+ + Cl-

The hypochlorous acid partially disassociates to hydrogen and hypochlorite ions.

HOCl - H+ + OCl-

The undissociated HOCl is the principle disinfecting agent

The primary reason disinfection byproducts form is due to organics in the source water, eg "turbidity." This is where things like chloroform gets produced in our drinking water, due to organics. When dosing water for optimum disinfection, you have to consider Chlorine Demand.

Chlorine will react with hard water components like manganese and iron. It will also react with ammonia and organics. The difference between the total chlorine dose added, and the chlorine detected in the water, is the Chlorine Demand

Chlorine demand is *not* a disinfecting dose, however. The Breakpoint Chlorine is the amount of chlorine that is required to meet Chlorine Demand *and* to disinfect

There will also be monochloramine to nitrogen, nitrification from biological interaction with chloramine, but for now I won't get into too much detail on that, unless you want me to. Let me know

The disinfection byproducts currently under the microscope include tri halo methanes - thm's - and halo acetic acids - haa's. The most effective way to remove dbp's is to effectively remove all the organic matter with better coagulation and flocculation, including active carbon and/or anthracite coal as a final step before chlorination

With chlorine or chloramine applied after such filtration, the incidence of dbp's is below threshold and the water is much safer. However, the additional cost to do much improved coagulation, flocculation, and carbon posttreatment is exotically expensive

As an engineer, it uncurls my short and curlies when I see money so easily and readily spent on sporting events, bling-bling, cosmetics, other frilly s***, but as soon as I mention that in the US alone it would cost around $700 billion to modernize our water and wastewater treatment systems to meet future needs and health standards, suddenly the vast majority of the sheep are ok with thm's and haa's in their water. Baaaaaa

Pause while short and curlies manage to recurl themselves. Kind of painful

As far as disinfection byproducts in our environment, there is very little as they are not considered persistent. For example, the organics just in the garden will readily consume the dbp's. Likewise with chlorine added to wastewater, it rapidly disassociates once discharged

It was disingenuous for Greenpeace to state, that among other things the disease outbreak in Peru had nothing to do with lack of chlorination. If you carefully read the report, they grudgingly admit disinfection would have helped, but that is buried in the report. You must disinfect not only potable water, but wastewater, to ensure a safe water supply

As far as cost, an individual home might get by with a mixed oxidant system, a quality (Stainless steel, not plastic cheap crap) distiller, a UV system, and an ozonator for under $9,000. Maybe.

For widespread use, say a city, a water treatment plant using distillation, UV, and ozonation for Winnipeg would cost tens of billions with current technology, with substantial yearly operating expenses (Power required to operate the ozonators, distillers, and UV system)

UV and ozone is gaining widespread use in Europe, but the jury is still out for applicability to large scale use. These facilities typically are for under 5,000 homes. They still have to do post-treatment disinfection to ensure residuals are maintained in the water supply.

As far as "safety" and dbp's, keep in mind that just about all disinfection systems create byproducts. It's disingenuous to state that there are no dbp's, as the ones created are currently not regulated

Eg:

Chloramination of water that contains trace bromine will result in iodinated disinfection byproducts

Ozonination will produce trihalonitromethane disinfection byproducts

Chlorine dioxide will produce "MX" or 3-chloro-4-(dichloromethyl)-5-hydroxy-2(5H)-furanone, and also brominated "MX" disinfection byproducts

Chloramine with ozone will reliably produce dihaloaldehyde disinfection byproducts

Another thing to keep in mind is the requirement to maintain "residual" chlorine levels in the distribution network. The distribution network is now very old, indeed leaky and falling apart. A lot of numnuts don't worry about that too much, as water is "cheap" and so what if it leaks out

When water leaks out, organics are also introduced into the distribution network. It makes biofilm control that much more difficult with fresh organics being introduced from all those ancient leaky pipes

In the end, I would not be surprised if to maintain a disease free water distribution system, we have to dramatically increase residuals, introduce more mi-ox into the mix, etc. Since nobody is truly willing to pay for constructing a modern water plant that effectively removes organics at the source before disinfecting

So we will probably have to invest in distillers with pre and post-treatment activated carbon to eliminate dbp's from our drinking and cooking water. This will become just one more "price" to pay to live in our society

 

You still need residuals to prevent biofilm and bacterial growth in the stored water

 

Funnily enough, its the right wing nuts who seem to be in charge of municipal and regional politcs, and make all those bizarre decisions - as if evil space seeds have taken them over and turned them into Pod People

hillbilly: we don't need to clean that sewage

me: what about biologic oxygen demand?

hillbilly: I don't care about that!

me: what about the organics causing formation of thm's?

hillbilly: I don't care about that!

me: what about your kid drinking chloroforms and haloacetic acids?

hillbilly: it's good for him! I can always make another kid if he croaks!

me: Thank you for allowing me to attempt to explain what your community requires for safe drinking water, for my consulting services here is your bill for $67,385,89. Good luck with this s***, you'll need it

 

I get all hot and bothered just *thinking* about oxidants and reductants. Whew, did it just get really hot in this room?

Nonsense, they're *good* for you. The little wiggly things are fond of your small intestine lumen, and in return they help give you bouts of explosive diarrhea.

And who doesn't like unpredictible bouts of explosive diarrhea?

 

Oh yea, that's lots of fun, although the little wiggly things were child's play compared to the bout of clostridium difficile (c.diff) I had two years ago. I though I was going to die that time around. A trip to the ER, IVs, two CT scans, two courses of metronidazole (flagyl) and finally two weeks of vancomycin fixed the problem. I spent months keeping very close track of available bathrooms.

Tom

 

Thanks, Jay, I feel much better about drinking so much water. It's my impression it's really no worse than bottled water, most of which comes from the tap in the first place. I've been known to drink straight from a mountain stream, and lived to tell the tale. The only tummy trouble I get is from eating the wrong foods.

Disinfecting our waste water is a good point. We treat most bodies of water as toilets and garbage dumps, but that's going to hurt us big time. Locally, we have large septic fields smack in the middle of natural springs. Brilliant.

What does temperature have to do with safer water? If it's routinely boiled, does that eliminate most of the worry? Does keeping it in the fridge have any effect? Are most household style water jugs actually worse unless the filter is changed regularly?

 

Hate to alarm you, but c.diff is known to kill people. It also really upsets the GI tract, causing colitis. Most typically caused by using antibiotic regimines, eg to treat *another* infection

Remember that c.diff is naturally in the environment. In the vast majority of healthy folks, nothing happens, but some of those folks can become carriers eg Typhoid Mary

I'm hopeful you haven't had to deal with the long-term effects that the most severe cases of c.diff can cause. You're on probiotics, right?

No doubt. I don't think a normaly healthy person can appreciate what can suddenly go wrong with their gut. At least not until it happens to them personally

 

Yes, I was on antibiotics. Probably needlessly, but that's the way we do medicine in this country. The antibiotics killed off the good guys and the c.diff popped out once they had a chance. As I'm sure you know, these little guys go into a cyst state where they can survive almost anything, then pop back out as soon as the coast is clear.

The c.diff led to a really nasty case of colitis. It's the worst I have ever felt. My insides were swollen up like a giant sausage. It took IVs to keep me from dieing from dehydration.

I'm back in fighting trim now, with no long term ill effects. As for your last question, I am now a big fan of probiotics. They make a huge difference.

Tom

 

Thanks, Jayman, for a fascinating education. I don't think I want to know what's in the air we breathe.

 

Probably an average, normally healthy person, would have no problems with that. Unless there are a lot of snails in the stream, that's a good way to pick up a fluke, or a trematode

I've known folks who have become terribly ill after ingesting "natural" water from lakes and streams. Most folks won't become ill, but some become violently ill

You can also easily pick up a trematode infestation by having a lovely shore lunch of undercooked or improperly cooked fish. Yep, can feel the little buggers just wiggling and fornicating like crazy inside you

Ok, found a nice link at McGill

http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/tropmed/txt/lecture6%20other%20flukes%20and%20cestodes.htm

Let's not even get into cestodes. If you have ever found and kept a stray pet with cestode infection, it's VITAL that you immediately dose with selamectin and drontal. Otherwise, not only are the other pets in your house at risk, so are you

I find it interesting that we now take for granted that our water supply is "safe." That is, we no longer fear outbreaks of protozoa, parasites, viral and bacterial.

At one time, people feared polio, cholera, dysentery, typhoid, and hep-A from the water. Now we can take it for granted that we probably will not get this stuff from our drinking water

We are living longer lifespans for a very good reason, it isn't by accident. Will I suggest that potable water sources are zero risk?

No, of course not

Will I suggest that much more should be done to investigate safer disinfection?

Absolutely

Will I suggest that we have to completely overhaul our wastewater and potable water infrastructure?

Yes, absolutely

I'm not trying to make light of this issue, as I take it very seriously. I get very frustrated that many folks simply do not give a s*** about proper treatment of wastewater, and safe treatment of potable water

It already is hurting us big time. By our failure to properly treat wastewater, ESPECIALLY including the use of combined grey/black systems, we are causing some pretty nasty problems with algae blooms, bacterial infections including coliforms

Hmmmm. You *could* say they just don't give a s***

The "best" way to ensure safe water in an emergency: first, filter it. A lot of the nasties can be removed that way. Next, boil the water, and let it boil for 1 minute minimum.

With filtration and boiling, a miniscule amount of regular laundry bleach can be added. Then leave the water in a container for at LEAST 30 minutes, I prefer 60. You're good to go

A home distillation system with carbon pre and post treatment will provide you with absolutely safe water. However, the distiller storage tank should be dosed with a very small dose of sodium hypochlorite. The dosing I'm talking about, you won't even notice it

You mean, will the water "keep" longer? Perhaps. However, the fridge or freezer will do NOTHING AT ALL to inactivate the cystic stage of most nematodes, trematodes, cestodes, or most bacteria and viruses.

Once you gulp the water down, they will happily come to life inside your GI tract

Next time you change a home RO filter, cut it open and see what is growing inside. You will wonder why the room is spinning

 

Yep, that is a common thing to have happen. Little buggers

Damn, I was hoping that didn't happen. I've known a couple of folks who went through just that, one needed partial resection to get rid of the dead part

You will have to be very vigilant as the colitis can make you far more vulnerable to other things in the future. I suggest crossing your fingers, hell I'll cross my fingers too

 

No, probably not

 

Another comment about municipal water treatment. Until recently, the city water system in our village consisted of three wells, a tank, and some pipe. The water and system were clean enough that we met standards without filtration or treatment.

A few years ago we added another well and a new pressure tank, located farther out of town. The added plumbing introduced bacteria into the system, and now we have to chlorinate.

Adding chlorine after all those years produced a few weeks of weird water. An awful lot of crud came off of the insides of all the old pipes. The chlorine doesn't help the flavor of the water, but it is easily removed with charcoal filtration.

On our boat we use a charcoal pre-filter and a 0.1 micron ceramic filter for making drinking water when away from civilization. Generally the water is so clean that I don't bother with chlorine unless we are near something nasty. Having an unlimited supply of fresh water makes cruising a lot more comfortable.

Tom

 

:doh:

This is commonly referred to as "sloughing." I'd be VERY surprised your community leaders did not anticipate that - unless they all wear dunce caps

It's well-known and understood that Cl2 or NaClO or whatever chlorinated disinfectant - will react with manganease in the water. This can produce a coagulation/flocculation effect, and in essence the years of built up deposits will become floc and microfloc in suspension

The water will become very cloudy, eg "turbidity", and can have a pretty skanky smell too.

The best way to deal with that is to ANTICIPATE it, because you SHOULD be able to anticipate that effect! If the water board person knows what he is doing

What I would have done, is sent out notification that nobody use their water for a 3-4 hour stretch. I would have "shocked" the pipe network, then opened up hydrants at the very end to flush the system

Usually, for hard water - especially if rust is iin the water - there are far better choices than dichlorine. A mixed oxidant will greatly minimize taste and odor complaints, and also greatly reduce rust bacteria buildup

I would also install automatic flushing gadgets at the hydrants at the end of the lines

Generally, for temporary water supply in remote areas, I will use something like a Katadyn. On a per litre basis, this results in very expensive water, but there is no way I'd want something wiggling and fornicating in MY guts!

 

A Katadyne is exactly what we use on our boat for filling the water tank from the lake. I plumbed one in permanently, and powered it with a high pressure 12V pump.

As for the village, we did flush out the system through the hydrants. That helped a lot. We do that every spring anyway, but when they started chlorinating they had to do a special flushing. There were no formal public announcements. Our town is so small news gets passes around word of mouth.

Tom

 

Portable water filters are a boon for hikers. Nobody wants to be disabled by bad water in a remote area. Of course, it was moronic hikers who caused the problems in the first place by not disposing of their wastes properly. 'Pack it in, pack it out' is the new mantra. That, and take a good sniff of your water bottle before you take a big swig.

 

Hikers aren't really the problem. Drinking water from a creek downstream from a beaver pond is a sure fire way to get giardia. In fact drinking downstream of any lake is pushing it. Animals "dropping a deuce" near the water will cause the same issue. Filters are key for hiking. The ceramic filters are the best, but pumping a significant amount of water can be pretty tiring. They also tend to foul if the water isn't really clear so you've got to pay attention to what you're pumping out of.

 

Automatic flushing gadgets can be installed on the hydrants