Looking for an Inverter to use with my Prius

Well, there is little-to-no doubt that arc fault breakers will save lives. It's important to understand what they mean by "arc fault"

In this case, an arc fault is *not* an arc flash event! That is, you don't have lightning bolts crashing out your breaker box. Well, you might if your service mast took a direct lightning strike, but that's another topic for another day

An arc fault is a high resistance, low current event. Here is the perfect exampel: you go to hang a picture in the bedroom. Say that instead of trying to find a stud, you just drill a small hole and use one of those drywall anchors.

Unknown to you, when you drilled the hole, you knicked a wire that was stapled to a nearby stud. The insulation is damaged, and once you tighten down the anchor to spread the metal leaves behind, it makes slight contact with the damaged wire

Over time, a very slight arcing occurs between the damaged hot wire, and the neutral/ground wire in the wire sheath. This causes the wire to get very warm. It may take a day or a year, but one day the arcing is just enough to get the stud burning.

Next thing you know, flames are shooting out the roof and the family is dead. Yes, this happens. Naturally, NEMA has a website to inform about AFCI's

AFCISafety.org

Up here, AFCI still cost around $110, compared to $18 for a standard breaker. Their reliability is a giant question mark, there have been recalls already

The best way to prevent arc fault events is to use black pipe conduit for wiring. I know how to work with black pipe conduit and have my own threader, so it saves me a lot of money. For the average homeowner this would add to the initial wiring cost, but will remain reliable far into the future.

Since the conduit pipe itself is grounded, any fault with any of the wires inside will usually reliably trip the breaker. Replacing wire is far easier than knocking out walls. It's fairly straight forward to pull new wire into the conduit

 

ANother thing to keep in mind: if you happen to own property on solid rock, with a freshwater body nearby, attempting to "ground" your remote electrical installation by throwing ground rods in that freshwater lake will absolutely defeat the operation of any AFCI or GFCI

The proper - and exotically expensive - way to ground such a scenario is to have a diamond drill "well" put down 30-80 ft (Depends on local resistivity and other rock conditions), put in a solid copper ground rod, then seal the "well" with an approved conductive backfill.

L O R E S C O

I recommend the slurry mix from Loresco, it also seals the aquifer from contamination and won't endanger the water supply

 

Jay,
Thanks for the link to my site.
I wrote an entire page in response to your statements above and went to reply and everything got wiped out.

The short version....replace the FPE panels.

One other thing...don't go "rapping" on circuit breakers! Ask the manufacturer why.

 

So the Square D and Siemens panels are better? Here in Canada, all three offer about the same failure rate. FPE StabLok is still sold here, still widely popular, and they don't appear to burst into flames

The StabLok has to be firmly inserted into the bus, or it will pop out when you remove the panel cover. The newer StabLok panels sold here the depression in the center is quite a bit more than the older panels, sometimes it's difficult to get the panel cover tightened down as a result

I've had problems with older StabLok GFI breakers. What are the stats on failure modes for +15 year old GFI breakers? On a 25 year old StabLok panel, a 20 amp breaker used as a switch daily, finally wore out

Having lived in the US for a bit over half my total lifespan, I have had experience with Square D. They make junk too. Don't even get me started on AFCI's, to meet a certain price point they have cheesy engineering and construction that will *not* last

 

I'll address you statements one at a time.

All manufacturers have "bad batches" from time to time.
I have a Zinsco panel in my home as well as a Square D box for my pool equipment. I had to replace the Square D breakers for the exact problem that the FPEs are known for.

FPE had several problems, starting with falsifying documents to get their UL rating to the excessive failure rate during "testing" conditions, not "certain" conditions as you stated above.
The breakers will "fly" out when the dead front cover is removed as the tangs on the breakers have separated. Again, this is a poor design.

The failure rate for G.F.I. breakers is far less than receptacles, regardless of age. Mainly due to the fact that no one bothers to test them monthly.......as per the manufacturer.
In over 20 years of inspecting residential homes, I would estimate that at least 50% of G.F.I. receptacles failed during the inspection. The number for breakers in that same time span is four.
The numbers are skewed as there are far more G.F.I. receptacles than breakers, at least in the homes I have inspected.

AFCI...the latest fraud perpetrated on the unsuspecting public!
The real reason that Arc-fault protection was developed was due mostly to improper installation techniques performed by sub-standard workers.
If everything was done properly, there would be no need for Arc-fault protection. That is just my experience in the field where when arc-fault protection was present and the breaker was tripped, in each case it was traced back to an improper connection.

One last thing regarding FPE panels, here in South Florida, if your home is more than 30 years old, your insurance company will ask you for a four-point inspection. This inspection determines if certain things have been updated, roof,plumbing, heat?, and electric.
Two questions on that form are 1) does the home have aluminum wiring? 2) is the home equipped with a Federal Pacific load center?
If the answer is yes to either one of those questions, you will not be able to obtain homeowners insurance, which if you have a mortgage, is a requirement.
Wonder why insurance companies don't want to write insurance if you have a FPE panel?

 

If that is the case, then certain Schneider Electric executives should go to jail

For a long time, CSA standards were much higher than UL standards. As an example: the kitchen must have, by code, 3 (three) 15 amp, split receptacles. Every kitchen I had in the US usually had a single 20 amp breaker feeding all the receptacles

With 3 split receptacles in the kitchen, you need three 2-pole breakers in the box. That takes up six slots in the bus. For those unfamiliar with split receptacles, you break the tab on the live side and run a separate wire to each live side.

As is popular up here, the electric kettle can be plugged into one receptacle and the electric coffee maker into another, with no worry of tripping and/or overload. You're only allowed 15 amp for branch circuits, not 20 amp

I agree a screw-down design is more reliable and - long term - safer. The nice thing with the stab is that you can just rock a new breaker into the E slot, without having to monkey around with insulated screwdrivers and the like.

I find it a handy way to add branch circuits without powering down the entire house. It's important to FULLY seat the breaker when pushing it in though. If the panel is already crowded, you may only partially seat the breaker, and it can pop out

The breakers covered by the recall here in Canada were from a certain batch.

I test mine monthly. I find them almost as failure prone as the GFCI receptacles, again because I test them monthly. Usually false trips. They had to come out with an extended 10mA then a 15 mA for submersible well pumps, as there was enormous problems when the code first required GFCI on well pumps: lots of false trips

I completely agree! A "solution" in search of a problem. Honestly, if arc faults are such a problem - eg the infamous screw in the gyproc that pierces the wire - than a permanent solution is black pipe conduit.

But to "protect" us from fly-by-night unlicensed home renovators and "electricians?" I do my own wiring for a reason. I'll use bx, Teck, or black pipe in situations where just romex would have been ok by code. I'm picky that way

No such requirement up here. I'd guesstimate 2/3 of homes up here have Stab Lok panels. Oddly enough, a very low incidence of electrical fires, at least very few traced back to a defective breaker

As usual, up here the common causes of electrical fires are illegal use of extension cords, overloaded extension cords, "cheater" plugs to allow grounded equipment use on obsolete two prong receptacles (You can still find those cheater plugs if you look for them!), defective electric heaters, defective small appliances that burst into flames for no rhyme or reason, etc etc etc

The Stab Lok in the basement at my hobby farm, and in the basement of my home, are no concern to me. As you noted, testing a breaker for trip faults will actually reduce its life, even cause a problem later.

As far as GFCI's, both the Square D and FPE were recalled up here

Consumer Information

The load centers are widely available in Canada at Big Box stores, Canadian Tire, Rona, etc

Schneider Electric Canada - Solutions, Products and Services in Electrical Distribution and Automation and Control

In rural areas, their Generator Panel is popular. It has a manual transfer switch built in to allow safe use of a generator without danger of backfeed

Schneider Electric Canada - Solutions, Products and Services in Electrical Distribution and Automation and Control

I'm sure you're aware that some folks with a generator will plug it into a range or dryer receptacle and illegally backfeed into the breaker bus. The generator panel is more convenient than having to get a separate pony panel

Current literature on Stab Lok

Schneider Electric Canada - Solutions, Products and Services in Electrical Distribution and Automation and Control

I appreciate your concern, but something isn't quite right here. As the majority of Canadian homes have FPE panels, you'd expect a lot of them to be bursting into flames left and right, if some of the media reports are accurate

Again, I'm not losing any sleep over my FPE panels. Like a lot of consumer items out there, I checked to make sure none of the breakers were covered by the recall.

I had several that were, took them out, went to the nearest convenient place, and promptly received replacements free of charge

 

It is possible that FPE breakers are different on each side of the border, but I doubt it. Given what I know,, as opposed to what I guess, I wouldn't have FPE breakers in my house given a choice.

Icarus

 

Again, given that a *majority* of Canadian homes have FPE equipment, one would expect a proportionately high incidence of electrical fires. We're not seeing that. Is it fault installation then?

I checked one of my spare 15 amp single pole breakers (Of *course* I keep spare breakers around!) and it's only labeled CSA. There is no UL mark on it. Wonder what - if anything - was different for the ones sold in the US?

So what would happen if - for example - you moved to Manitoba and your home (Naturally) had a 200 amp FPE panel? Call Manitoba Hydro to urgently rush out, cut the tag, pull the meter out of the base, and wait for it to be replaced by a Square D, Siemens, or Cutler Hammer?

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

One thing I had to untrain myself to do was to only plug in one electrical appliance at a time in my kitchen, once back in Canada. If I had guests over, and some wanted coffee and others wanted tea, I'd catch myself plugging the electric kettle into the wall plug, and the coffee maker into the electric stove plug.

The guests would ask "Wth are you doing?" and I'd smack my forehead, and plug the coffee maker into the receptacle as well. That nice little Canadian electrical code requiring three split 15 A kitchen receptacles, a dedicated 15 A microwave receptacle, a dedicated 15 A fridge receptacle, and a dedicated clock receptacle

I don't lose any sleep over the FPE equipment in my house. If you were a guest in my house, you shouldn't either. The arc fault stuff, well, that's a failure mode waiting to happen: cheesy engineering and construction to meet the rushed AFCI code requirement

 

a prius will put out 1200 to 1300 watts before the voltage drops too low and the inverter resets due to voltage drops. i've tested this many times.

two or three days of running an 11 amp circular saw burnt up about half a gallon of fuel. i'm using my inverter to help build my house currently. running a 3500 watt gen is just too noisy.

modified sine waves will possibly kill laptop chargers ( i've done this twice ) and causes audio and possibly visual disturbance in electrical equipment. modified sine wave is great in emergencies.. or construction use ( as i use my prius for.. i even have a construction trailer...) but bad if you're wanting to constantly run something off of it for hours at a time as it could damage things ( as mentioned above)

my 1200w 2400peak modified sine wave inverter cost me 110 dollars us. ( kragen auto parts )

 

V8, I just worry about possible damage to the DC-to-DC inverter. Anything is possible, say a rare bad 12 vdc inverter that takes out the DC-to-DC on the Prius. You could buy four generators, and the gas to run them, a lot cheaper than such a major repair

I think an integrated inverter, like the wimpy 400w one on my FJ, would be nice. But otherwise I prefer a generator. Just to run a saw or construction equipment, a regular cheap genny works fine

I have a Honda inverter generator for more sensitive loads that need backup

 

For a long time, CSA standards were much higher than UL standards. As an example: the kitchen must have, by code, 3 (three) 15 amp, split receptacles. Every kitchen I had in the US usually had a single 20 amp breaker feeding all the receptacles

Not if they were complying with the code:
From section 210 NEC: (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

As is popular up here, the electric kettle can be plugged into one receptacle and the electric coffee maker into another, with no worry of tripping and/or overload. You're only allowed 15 amp for branch circuits, not 20 amp

Sounds like you need a new kettle.

I find it a handy way to add branch circuits without powering down the entire house. It's important to FULLY seat the breaker when pushing it in though. If the panel is already crowded, you may only partially seat the breaker, and it can pop out

I sincerely hope you are joking in regards to the above statement. For others reading this, "power down" the home before you connect anything to the panel. If you have to ask why, you shouldn't be doing any electric work in the first place.

No such requirement up here. I'd guesstimate 2/3 of homes up here have Stab Lok panels. Oddly enough, a very low incidence of electrical fires, at least very few traced back to a defective breaker

As usual, up here the common causes of electrical fires are illegal use of extension cords, overloaded extension cords, "cheater" plugs to allow grounded equipment use on obsolete two prong receptacles (You can still find those cheater plugs if you look for them!), defective electric heaters, defective small appliances that burst into
I appreciate your concern, but something isn't quite right here. As the majority of Canadian homes have FPE panels, you'd expect a lot of them to be bursting into flames left and right, if some of the media reports are accurate

The media doesn't have the time to fully investigate the depth of this problem. Nor, in my opinion, is it their job to do so. That is why several of us home inspectors are submitting data to Dan Friedman regarding this issue.

Just to be clear, I am referring to the "Stab-Lok" breakers that were the older models manufactured in the US. The ones you referenced on my web site.

As to the newer versions, if they are the same design as the older ones, how are they going to perform better?

 

So a couple of 20 amp branch circuits had to cover *everything* in the kitchen, including the fridge? No wonder .... most likely the homes I had down there, one 20 amp branch circuit was just for the fridge, and everything else in the kitchen - except the stove - ran off the other branch

I'm afraid you don't understand. I can plug in the kettle *and* the coffee maker at once. The electric toaster too. Since by code there are three 15 amp split receptacles, all three can run at once.

If there is a single 20 amp branch supplying the fridge, and another 20 amp branch supplying the rest of the receptacles in the kitchen, could I run the electric kettle, the electric coffee maker, and even the electric toaster on that single 20 amp circuit?

No, I'd be plugging at least one appliance into the electric stove convenience outlet.

If electricians are working on "conventional" equipment like Square D, Siemens, or Cutler Hammer, yes they turn off the entire house using the main. Otherwise, it's common practice up here for electricians to add an additional Stab Lok with the bus live.

With the Stab Lok off, you engage it into the row and firmly push it into the E slot of the bus. The few times I've had licensed electricians over - eg the condo I used to own it was forbidden to work on the wiring yourself - they worked live

There are quite a few Google hits for Dan Friedman. Which one are you referring to?

Ah, I missed that tidbit. The Stab Lok's I have are all made in Canada, and only have the CSA mark. They have several uniquely Canadian features, such as Robertson size "red" screws instead of slot

I have no idea what has changed over the +40 years this design has been used. What I find interesting is that despite the majority of Canadian homes using this equipment, we're not seeing anything unusual with electrical fires caused by these breakers

We actually do have a very nosy and loud investigative consumer repors show up here.

CBC News: Marketplace | Canada's Investigative Consumer Show

Defective products and services will get a very noisy calling out

I am curious about one thing: say I were to replace my FPE equipment. What would you recommend? Square D? Siemens? Cutler Hammer? It's difficult to find breakers for these products

Ironically, if I were to buy those breakers in the US, they usually do not carry the CSA stamp. Eg not legal to use here in Canada

 

So a couple of 20 amp branch circuits had to cover *everything* in the kitchen, including the fridge? No wonder .... most likely the homes I had down there, one 20 amp branch circuit was just for the fridge, and everything else in the kitchen - except the stove - ran off the other branch

Re-read the code section, and don't forget, these are "minimums".

Here is how a typical 2000 square foot home would be wired:
2 20 amp circuits to serve the countertop/island, gfi protected (minimum)
1 20 amp circuit for the refrigerator (minimum, certain larger refrigerators, SubZero types, may require more)
1 40 amp circuit for the range (again, minimum)
1 20 amp double pole split breaker for the disposal/dishwasher
If here is a built in microwave oven, 1 20 amp dedicated circuit, as it says on the back of the oven. As most homes today have the built in microwave option, most electricians wire the home for one and if one isn't installed, then the hood fan gets plugged in that receptacle.

I'm afraid you don't understand. I can plug in the kettle *and* the coffee maker at once. The electric toaster too. Since by code there are three 15 amp split receptacles, all three can run at once.

In our home, built in 1971, we have: 1 coffee maker, 1 toaster oven, one blender, one George Foreman rotisserie oven, 1 800 watt microwave oven (counter-top). All can and have run at the same time and not tripped the breaker.

If electricians are working on "conventional" equipment like Square D, Siemens, or Cutler Hammer, yes they turn off the entire house using the main. Otherwise, it's common practice up here for electricians to add an additional Stab Lok with the bus live.

With the Stab Lok off, you engage it into the row and firmly push it into the E slot of the bus. The few times I've had licensed electricians over - eg the condo I used to own it was forbidden to work on the wiring yourself - they worked live

I have never spoken to an electrician who would "publicly" admit to working on anything live.

There are quite a few Google hits for Dan Friedman. Which one are you referring to?
Type in FPE...that one.

Ah, I missed that tidbit. The Stab Lok's I have are all made in Canada, and only have the CSA mark. They have several uniquely Canadian features, such as Robertson size "red" screws instead of slot

I am curious about one thing: say I were to replace my FPE equipment. What would you recommend? Square D? Siemens? Cutler Hammer? It's difficult to find breakers for these products

Difficult to find breakers for what products? If you mean FPE, American Breaker makes replacements for the FPE "Stab-Lok" line and Cutler Hammer makes a retro-fit kit that is UL rated.

To answer your question about which breaker to choose, not any of the builder model types. Probably Square D as they seem to have the best technical assistance. I have contacted them on several matters pertaining to interpretation of instructions and use of their products.

Ironically, if I were to buy those breakers in the US, they usually do not carry the CSA stamp. Eg not legal to use here in Canada

 

First of all, I find it very difficult replying to your comments, as you do not separate my quotes from yours. You will note when I reply to you, it's easy to differentiate your quotes from my comments. It is fairly easy to insert the code to do so, please consider this in future replies.

Looks like every house I had in Utah was wired to the bare minimum then. I'm not going on theoretical performance, these are actual issues I noted, even with brand new homes I had built

Generally:

http://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/regs/2006/081.pdf

http://www.hydro.mb.ca/customer_services/permits_and_inspections/electrical/electrical_code_2006.pdf

Twenty amp branches are not allowed, unless an appliance actually needs it, eg air conditioner. Room lighting and receptacles must be fed with 15 amp maximum

The kitchen will have three (3) 15 amp split receptacles. This requires three(3) two pole 15 amp breakers (If one side has overcurrent, the entire receptacle is tripped)

One 15 amp dedicated branch for the fridge. Larger as needed for custom fridge, eg hunk of s*** Sub Zero

Ditto, larger as required. Also, if there is a separate wall oven with a smooth top cooking unit, then each requires separate branch circuits

One 15 amp branch circuit for the dishwasher, a separate dedicated 15 amp branch circuit for the hand eater, I mean disposal

Mandatory separate 15 amp branch circuit for the microwave. Location can be a separate "nook" for the machine, or a space intended on the counter top

Mandatory 15 amp branch circuit. If the hood fan is also a combination microwave oven, than the single dedicated 15 amp branch circuit can be combined for the single unit

Had a brand new home built in Utah in 1995. The coffee maker and the toaster easily popped the breaker. This was a permitted installation by a licensed electrical contractor that passed all relevant code back in 1995

I got in the habit of plugging the coffee maker into the convenience outlet of the electric stove

They do it all the time up here. If electricians are never supposed to work live, then arc flash would NEVER happen

Gotcha. He does appear to admit the Canadian made units may be different, but unsure how. I did pull the cover off my panel - no Stab Lok's jumped out at me in the process and no lightning bolts of electricity zapped me - and all the breakers have only a CSA stamp.

The main breaker also has a separate Manitoba Hydro inspection sticker.

I quickly wiggled all the branch breakers, they appeared tight. No zaps, explosions, etc

All of my branch Stab Lok have Robertson drive only to tighten the wire down. That makes sense, Robertson screws are almost universal in Canada, especially size "red." In the US you'd call them Square Drive

(sigh)

It's difficult to find branch breakers for American brand panels up here in Canada. If I walk into a Home Depot, a Rona, or a Canadian Tire, I will almost universally find every needed Stab Lok residential breaker made.

Square D are carried at the larger stores, not at the smaller stores. Siemens breakers are hard to find, and Cutler Hammer are special order only

I checked, it's not CSA approved for use in Canada. Guess I'm stuck with my Stab Lok breakers then.

Exactly! To meet the residential price-point, many serious engineering and construction corners are cut

Again, I have to reiterate that despite the majority of Canadian homes having the dreaded Stab Lok panels and breakers, there is a very low incidence of malfunction and/or fire

 

Interesting thing about Utah. You aren't the first person to say that. I have talked to others who said that basically, no code existed and no inspections were done!

When I quote your statements, my statements don't show up and then it wouldn't let me post the reply because of links, links that weren't even in the quote! It has something to do with the five post thing.

The bottom line is that the older "Stab-Lok" panels were junk. I would be fairly certain that things have changed so that the "new" FPE stuff is code compliant, at least, your code.

I haven't looked at the Canadian code, since I don't live there, but I do remember once at an ASHI seminar, the presenters were from Canada, Carson Dunlop, I think, and after about a half hour and viewing the sideways mounted breaker panel with thirty wires coming out of it, none of them secured, I asked the question "Are there any electric codes in Canada?". That got a chuckle from several of the old timer inspectors! When the presenter answered "Yes", we stopped chuckling.

I have always believed that the code should be exceeded whenever possible.
On a 2000 square foot home, 200 amps minimum, 20 amp circuits minimum, there wouldn't be a stitch of 14 ga wire anywhere, for anything. It may prevent may of the things that I have found during inspections....well...maybe some of them!

 

Ah, that could explain it then!

Gotcha

Well, again, if that were true of the Canadian market Stab-Lok, given the majority of homes in Canada are equipped with them, in some cases 40 years old, without any alarming trends of failure, or fire, something is up then

All wires must be stapled within 12 inches of leaving the panel. A panel can be mounted vertically or horizontally, depending on space restrictions. I've wired them both ways, passed the inspection with flying colors, and had no issues

Actually, the latest trend up here is to run individual branch circuits to every room. At one time a 42 circuit load center was standard, then it slowly increased to 48 and now 64 circuits, 200/225 main breaker.

http://www.schneider-electric.ca/www/ecat/documents/b_section.pdf

There is even 82/84 circuit load centers coming on the market. I have a 200 amp 64 circuit load center at both homes

BTW what *really* caused electrical fires, especially in Quebec, was when they briefly approved the use of aluminum wiring. That was a disaster

 

Al wire=disaster. I don't even like it for 4/0 main feeder

Interesting to note that in our bush house we run the entire house on a 300 watt sine wave inverter, using ~.6kw/day! The inverter feeding 4/120vac branch circuits. (Also several 12vdc branch circuits, fed through a Square D QO panel,, the only readily available dc breakers.)

Icarus

 

Professionally installed, with appropriate precautions, it's fine. Installed by barely licensed home electricians, or DIY, a tragedy waiting to happen

Hint: dissimilar metals, oxidation, etc

Fairly common to find on DC applications, eg telecomms and other loads at -48 vdc

 

You guys would have loved the 1950's era home I was in down in Georgia. Two old time fuses, not breakers (20 amp IIRC) for all the lights and wall sockets. One for the front of the house, another for the back. There were individual circuits for the oven, AC, water heater, etc. but not for the rest of it. The box was not even labeled until I lived there. Couldn't find replacement fuse holders for the 220 so I had to rebuild existing ones in new configurations when I found some weren't working. (And I am NOT an electrician by any stretch of the imagination.) CFL's made the circuit wiring livable, but you still had to be careful when vacuuming. Side note: they saved money by not having any shut off valves for water lines...I've learned that Southerners are the worst sort of cheap when it comes to such things. It had a few shut offs by the time I moved out...

And then there was an apartment about 20 years ago that had both bathrooms (lights and sockets) on the same 15 amp breaker. This was late 80's era Texas wiring and it really sucked. That poor breaker got quite a work out which of course made it trip even easier than when new. I finally taped it down so that it couldn't flip when one us turned on a hair dryer. Put two hair dryers and ~8 incandescents on the same 15 amp circuit some time... My wife and I worked out a hair drying schedule in the morning when we got ready for work.

Then there was the 70's vintage Texas home...that one had an aluminum feeder. Perhaps the transformer was weak as well, but I could measure quite a bit of voltage cycling, especially when I was running the washer agitator. It was irritating having the lights cycle when that happened. The wiring was crap in it and I routinely rewired switches as a result.

 

One of my first fixer-uppers was like that. I'm still surprised I never got electrocuted in that death trap