Police Academy

It was the Wisconsin site. The same place I was arrested once. There was an un-manned transmitter building surrounded by a simple chain-link fence, easy to climb over. The antenna was supported by regular wood telephone poles, easy to cut down with a chain saw.

We assumed that such sites, being used for communication with nuclear-armed subs, would be primary targets. Both sides have about ten times as many nukes as there are useful targets, so a communications installation would be an obvious target. And the Wisconsin site was very soft.

Come on Jay, the answer to this is obvious. The military is as concerned as is the peace movement to avoid an unintentional war. The military wants to be able to nuke anyone they choose. But they don't want a sub commander launching just because his radio went dead and he thinks communications have been cut off by an attack. Launch orders must be explicit, not assumed.

That said, I did say that this was an assumption in the peace movement, which I have no independent knowledge about.

What I heard (again from the peace movement) is that ELF transmits three-letter codes. As Tom points out, ELF is also extremely low bandwidth (as a ham radio operator, this is something I know independently). It is supposed that the codes would tell the sub captain to surface for a more detailed communication. And I suppose (this is strictly me supposing now) that the sub would not need to come all the way to the surface. I imagine a floating antenna on a long cord that could be reeled out from 50 or 100 feet down, which could receive ordinary radio transmissions by satellite or HF radio.

It would make sense that the final order contains part of the launch key. But as you said, the military does not give out that sort of information, and I'm sure that anybody who actually knows is forbidden from talking about it.

Hey, do you suppose I could blame my back pain on Project ELF? My back has been hurting for a day and a half now. Damn those trident subs!

 

I just love it when engineers talk "dirty" like that

My involvement was more in radar systems - eg the site at Thule - and code crunching. At a purely academic level, it was very fascinating work

 

An true operational site, you would have been mowed down or would have just disappeared. They are heavily patrolled and defended, the sign will state "use of deadly force authorized"

http://www.msc.navy.mil/N35/FPWebpage/POLICYONTHEUSEOFDEADLYFORCE.pdf

Yes, they probably are primary first strike targets. Many of the secondary and low-level command bunkers scattered across the country, many now abandoned, were also primary first strike targets

Like you said, with a clear overabundance of warheads and reentry vehicles, it's fairly easy to program even fairly low-key facilities. A lot of those radar bases in the Arctic (DEW line), in Canada (Mid Canada Line and Pinetree Line) would have been first blinded by EMP, then target with reentry vehicles

I was being a wee bit sarcastic ...

It's obvious that operational details are classified. However, it's easy enough to state logically that you would *never* trust an isolated individual with sole custody and decision over the use of nuclear weapons

Um, a bit more complex than that, but I won't get into it

Yes, it would be painfully slow

The TACAMO planes are used for that. The fleet flew 24x7 during most of the cold war, wearing out an entire fleet of Boeing 707's

I blame it on the mind control "beams" that "they" broadcast from orbit. Sometimes "they" crank up the gain too much and harmonics are introduced into the "beams"

 

Oh, wait a minute. What was the time period? Before 1990? Especially before 1980?

That may have been a GATR site. GATR: Ground Air Transmit and Receive.

GATR was widely used at AF sites, Army sites, in addition to troposcatter communications. It's regular band communications

 

We saw the "deadly force" signs everywhere. But the reality is, they don't shoot peaceful protesters. I climbed over fences with "deadly force" signs. First the Air Force guards arrive (this was at missile silos) and they see what's going on. Then they back off and play soldier while they wait for the county sheriff, who they call. The sheriff arrives, the Air Force guards open the gate, take the protester (me, sometimes) into custody, march him/her/them out, or drag them if need be, and turn them over to the sheriff, who takes them to jail.

Even in the case of Plowshares, where protesters do actual physical damage to the installation, they've never used more force than dragging an uncooperative protester out, and they don't even do that if the protester cooperates and walks out once placed under arrest.

The time I was arrested at project ELF, there were not even any military personnel in evidence. It was the sheriffs who entered the compound and arrested us, all very peacefully, in spite of the "deadly force" signs.

Nope. This was Project ELF near Ashland, WI. Well, not really near, but Ashland was the jurisdiction. It probably would have been around 1990 or 1992. I don't remember if it was before or after my six months in prison. But the protests continued there well into the 1990's. As I said, I seemed to remember hearing the facility had been shut down.

I cannot speak to the question of whether this was a test facility. But it was definitely ELF, with its miles-long antenna.

 

Gotcha. The GATR sites have around half a dozen telephone poles with wire strung between.

Sounds like that site was a test site though

 

Jayman, your deadly force comment made me think of a story from earlier times. We were doing some work with Boeing at a mixed use air base. Some of the development at the site was commercial, some was military. Security at the gate was not up to your normal military level, but more like rent-a-cops. One of my engineers had been sent out to retrieve a reel of magnetic tape that we desperately needed (that's right, in those days we used open reel magnetic tape for computer data). He was on a tight schedule between airplane flights. When he got to the gate, the rent-a-cop was missing. Being in a hurry, and not having the best judgement, my engineer decided to enter the base anyway - no pass and not signed in.

To further complicate things, there was a very large airplane hanger between the gate and our reel of magnetic tape. You either took the long way around, or cut through the empty hanger. This hanger had been empty for months. My engineer decided to cut through the hanger. He only made it a couple of feet inside the door before he found himself thrown up against the wall with an M16 shoved into his face. The Airforce had moved into the hanger, and they weren't real happy about visitors.

It took me a lot of time and sweet-talking to get my engineer released.

Tom

 

A very common situation from the end of WW II to the early 1970's. Eg a lot of the airfields used in arctic regions of Canada were dual purpose: commercial for exploration and the rare civilian transport, and military to supply the Mid Canada Line, and DEW line sites

Still widely used when I began my career. Remember when the Iomega Bernoulli Box cartridge first came out? IIRC the first ones we played with were 20 MB, which was a simply astounding amount of data. The price was astounding too, good thing it was the government paying for them

I suppose if you didn't like the guy, and were in a sinister mood, you could have said "That guy? I don't know him. But I have seen him sneaking around the perimeter fence the past week

Naw, that would have been a *very* sinister thing to do ...

 

"Plowshares" is a term for a very loosely-knit segment of the peace movement, mostly deeply religious peaceniks, who damage weapons systems as a symbolic statement of their belief that we need to follow the Biblical injunction that "they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks." Sometimes they go to private armament manufacturing sites, and other times they go to military bases. Most often the targets of their citizen disarmament efforts are nuclear or nuclear-related weapons, such as the missile silos scattered across Middle America, but sometimes they target other weapons used to kill civilians, such as bombers.

That's just the background to the following:

It is surprising how easy it is for people to walk onto military bases and begin smashing up weapons. Occasionally they are stopped by guards. But far more often they are able to walk right in and do their damage. Being religious, they usually sit down and pray after they are done hammering, until some guard shows up and arrests them. Sometimes, after doing their damage and praying for a good long while, they have to go looking for a guard to arrest them.

It's never their intention to "get away with it." Their intention is to make a public, symbolic statement against weapons used primarily to kill civilians. I'm not aware of deadly force ever being used in these cases.

 

Daniel

Oh, entirely believable. Given the convoluted bureaucracy of the government, and the military, it was often surprisingly easy to waltz right onto a supposedly "secret" and "secure" facility.

I'm surprised somebody just didn't fly off with an F4 Phantom or similar jet.

I'm sure some folks may be confused by Plowshares, as it was also the name of an AEC program for "peaceful" uses of the atom. Eg: using nuclear bombs to stimulate natural gas production

 

You would of course perfer her to engange in a high speed getaway endangering the lives of many other innocent people?

Wildkow

 

It only becomes high-speed when the cops give chase rather than sending a radio message for other cops to block the road ahead.

However, it was your evident glee as you described rather graphically her pain and contortions that I was commenting on.

Kow, you made it clear that you'd love to see a pregnant woman rolling on the ground in pain. In your own words, "It would have been a hoot."

Kow, you are a very sick man. I personally find your attitude revolting.

 

So Daniel you want to give a pregnant woman a chance to crash a police blockade thus endangering her life, the unborn child, police and any other nearby innocent victims. That's more revolting than Tazing a crazed woman willing to get into high speed chases with the police. Thats just sick dude.

Wildkow

 

Kow: You really don't get it, do you? Well, not surprising for someone who thinks the Bible is a useful reference for chemistry, physics, and the origin of species, and who gets his debating style from Rush and D. Berman. I'm talking about the fact that someone else's suffering gives you such happiness that you describe it as "a hoot" to watch a pregnant woman rolling on the ground in pain.

Regardless of what anybody thinks about what the cop should have done, it is sick to describe the pain and suffering of another human being as "a hoot."

Of course you cannot comprehend the difference between a cop who reluctantly hurts someone because he believes it will prevent worse harm, and a bystander who hopes the cop will hurt someone because it would be "a hoot" to watch her rolling on the ground, screaming in pain.

You are one sick [expletive deleted].

 

Speaking of one sick f***, how about the Dallas Police prick Robert Powell when he prevented NFL'r Ryan Moats from seeing his dying mother-in-law in the hospital

A lot more of that Digital Eyewitness evidence has come out. Another officer tried to get Powell to just release Moats and follow him into the hospital, which he refused to do. Powell had the infamous "I can screw with you" quote

Even better, although off camera, he is clearly heard discussing with the other officer about how to justify the pursuit: he would claim that Moats tried to "run him over" which he clearly did NOT ever try to do

Now this Powell - in an interview on CBS - is "terrified" about losing his job. Well, tough s*** little man

 

With that attitude, he should be lucky to get off with just losing his job. That's exactly the type of behavior that gives all police a bad name.

Tom

 

Police are not all bad. But the tendency of good cops to cover for bad ones gives the lie to their motto of "Serve and protect." Unless it means serve the ruling class and protect the rich from the justified anger of the poor.

When you compare the way cops treat rich people with the way they treat poor people, their true nature comes out. I've told the story before of the cop handcuffing a docile Indian man behind his back. The cop knew the Indian and knew that he never gets angry or aggressive, but insisted that the "rules" "require" them to always use handcuffs when transporting anyone, and to put the cuffs behind. The Indian had requested a ride to detox. He was not being arrested. But when I was arrested, the cops never handcuffed me behind my back, and sometimes didn't handcuff me at all. Once the cop, after arresting me, put me in the front seat of his car without handcuffs.

They give as their excuse their draconian "rules" when dealing with poor people or people of color, but they blithely ignore those rules when dealing with a white middle-class person. And they look the other way when rich people break the law. In Watts, they'll bust down a door, guns blazing, on an anonymous tip that there's a joint; but in Beverly Hills, the movie actors snort their cocaine, secure in the knowledge that the cops will never bother them.

 

So, how are these cops "good" when they cover for ones who are lying, thieving, sob's? Much like the Crystal Taman case here, when an off duty cop, Derek Harvey-Zenk, got shitfaced after work, plowed into the back of an innocent woman, instantly killing her

No jail time for ex-cop who killed woman in car crash

Naturally, the other goody-goody cops covered up for him. Hell, if I want to kill somebody, I'll just slam into them with my 5,000 lb FJ with solid custom bumpers, then go to a bar and get shitfaced. Think I'd get off with a two year sentence at home?

I rather doubt it. Those same goody-goody cops would throw every charge possible against me. But one of their own, suddenly it became Keystone Cops, except an innocent person died so it wasn't funny

You really have to check out the director's cut of Cidade de Deus (City of God), released 2002. It's in Brazilian Portuguese with english subtitles:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/product/B0000D9PNX?tag=priuschatcom-20 the extras is a documentary - also in Portuguese - about the favelas and narcotics. The police chief of Rio is very blunt in describing the situation almost exactly as you have.

How very interesting, the police chief of Rio admitting they work BOTH sides of the street, and only the poor are clamped down, to prevent them rising up against the upper middle class and richer.

 

I am distinguishing between cops who try to do what's right, and cops who are totally corrupt. It's not easy to rat out a bad cop when you're trying to be a good cop.

Here's the analogy: War is murder; flat out murder. But there are kids who join the army because they think it would be "a hoot" to kill people, and there are kids who join because they mistakenly but honestly believe that what they're doing is necessary for the safety of their country. Once they're in, they have to back each other up.

There are cops who are in it for the corruption, and cops who are in it because they mistakenly but honestly believe that the "justice" system makes society safe for ordinary folks. But once they're in, they feel they have to back each other up.

That's what I meant when I said not all cops are bad.

 

Yes, I agree, and I will have to answer for what I've done. War is only "just" if your side wins, then no matter what the excess, the carnage, it was all "essential" for the greater good

If you're on the losing side, and occupied for awhile, then even minor indiscretions suddenly become the reason for justifying the war with "them" to begin with

When I was in, a very small handful, perhaps 5%, thought that way: it would be a hoot to kill somebody. These folks were seriously unhinged, and IMHO very much a danger to all the Armed Forces. Not all of them were hillbilly white trailer trash, some were just mentally unhinged.

Actually I joined because on my dads side, they have all enlisted as far back as WWI. Call it a basic "duty to country." Where I broke ranks (Get it? Hehehehe) was not joining the Marines. My grandfather and my father were both in the Marines, I went Army.

Overall I learned many valuable skills that directly relate to my career. With a virtually unlimited budget, you get to play with all the latest communications, surveillance, and electronic gadgets

I promoted quickly as I always went by the book, and by that I mean I went right down to the LETTER. I guess they also liked my smidgen of brains too, but I have a reputation as a trustworthy, straight-talking individual

It may be far different now, as I left in '97. From what I've heard, the quality of recruits has gone right down the commode

When I was in, we backed each other up to the extent sane and permissible. The few headcases we would *never* put our wieners on the line for! If they f***ed up, and they eventually did, they did so alone

The problem is, when headcases make up a sizable minority of a unit or company, you then have very serious problems. Headcases attract other headcases, like a critical mass, and you end up with a very volatile and dangerous situation: a nut carrying a rife capable of high rates of fire, and training in the use of that weapon, along with general warfare techniques

Just the "perfect storm" for a loser to return back to a street gang, or a hillbilly grow op

I'm sure you're also well aware of how veterans are treated once they're wounded and no longer capable of returning to a normal job. It's absolutely SHAMEFUL that we have veterans, many of whom sacrificed a leg or more, living on our streets as homeless people

In that context, don't you think there is very much a "fear factor" or intimidation involved? It's no great secret that the kids who were playground bullies in grade school, naturally gravitate to either a life of crime, or become cops.

I'd have to guess that the majority of cops are from that background, and given that background, easily and naturally can work both sides of the street. Perhaps under 25% of new cops join due to belief in making the world a better place

I'm thinking of the story of Frank Serpico. It's not just big city departments that are rife with corruption, though its perhaps easier in big cities. I naturally assume a cop has an ulterior motive

When I lived very simply - far below my means - I also found myself under far more suspicion from the authorities. This is despite having a clean sheet, even a security clearance

Now that I live what many would consider an upper middle class existence, no official authority figure has ever even glanced at me