Mitsubishi i MiEV First Impressions

Wow ... someone lends a hand and you whine in it. Best you just keep driving your ICE ... you know ... 'till there's been at least a couple decades of empirical data, cross checked & double blind studied. I wonder where the model T would be if we had taken that approach. No, never mind, it's best to go by number crunchers. Take Art Spinella. According to his irrefutable data, I should be driving a hummer. Stupid practical experience people. Damn Darell, your such a fork toung'd BS'er ... those stupid RAV4-EV's are probably part of some multilevel marketing ponzi scheem

 

What I like to say: No good deed goes unpunished.

 

My thought was Darell, and by the way thanks for sharing your very extensive EV experience with us. My thought in posting the post you responded to above is to point out to anyone asking what is the hit on range in extreme weather is it will be about the same as the hit you get in your current car on your MPG. For example if you normally average 46mpg but in winter you get 41.4mpg then you can expect to have about a 10% reduction in range in an EV. This automatically takes into account higher rolling resistance on wet or snow covered roads, increased heater and light use.
How's that? Make any sense or should I butt out because I don't have any hard numbers to post?

 

Pat... I was just playing the devil. The response I posted was simply what most people respond when I give your answer to them.

You've nailed it here. Lots of folks assume that there is a huge range hit in an EV with the heater or AC. Some worry about headlights, and there are those who are even concerned with the power that the radio draws. The fact of the matter is, any significant range reductions in foul weather comes from a combination of factors. In winter the air is heavier and the car has more drag. There is often water on the pavement for the tires to have to move. All the accessories are going. The wind is blowing. The tires are likely softer from the cold. All these tiny things add up, and the result can be some noticeable range reduction. The HVAC by itself isn't much to worry over. Really, the worst situation by far is a rainy headwind (doesn't matter if I have the lights on or the heater going - those are insignificant in this situation). And with the exception of heat (which in a gas car is just borrowed from the prodigious waste heat from the ICE) all this stuff affects all types of cars in generally equal ways. Doesn't matter if it is gas powered or battery powered.

But back to the devil for a moment - the pro gas folks will tell you that's the beauty of using such an energy dense fuel. We have plenty to waste, so a drop in efficiency doesn't matter.

Bottom line - we're in complete agreement.

Mate, you've shown me enough. Please don't show me your hard numbers!

I forget. What's this got to do with the iMiEV again?

 

FYI,
Mitsubishi's iMiEV site in English.
about i MiEV | MITSUBISHI MOTORS JAPAN
Mitsubishi's iMiEV site in Japanese.
about i MiEV in Japanese | MITSUBISHI MOTORS JAPAN

Ken@Japan

 

Oh what a load of baloney, darrel. I pointed out something that is LEGITIMATE consideration and you attempted to blow it off as if it didn't even exist. Stow the BS and actually take an honest look at the numbers. That's what has me irritated. You lost your credibility. Heck, you didn't even get your Prius numbers right...which set off the warning bells for me.

Hey, Pat, ever consider that my hybrid range has never been reduced to sub 40 miles by the factors I mentioned. No? Well, think it through next time! Oh, and by the way, the effect would not be as great in standard engines because they are even less efficient... Think about it for a second: Less efficient means they consume much more energy per mile...so the fixed overhead of AC/lights/ECU's/radios applied to a given time period will be a much smaller percentage decline for them.

It's funny, Pat, that I said about the same thing that you are saying (using the Prius with its relatively high efficiency as a platform) and darrel tried to blow it off. But now he's agreeing with you. Congrats, darrel, on coming full circle and PRETENDING that is where you were all along.

Fact is, my reasoning was correct. I didn't claim it was a show stopper, just a factor in consideration. An EV like this has about 20% of the range of a standard vehicle to begin with. So it matters far more with an EV than with petroleum based vehicle.

 

Let's take a look back shall we:

Which of course does not add up. At highway speed in the Prius the drop is typically about 1 mpg/1mph for example. Take 45 mpg as the base highway in a Prius and the aero effect works out to 2.2%, not 5%. To get 5% one would need between 2-3 mph at highway speeds.

That's all well and good at highway speeds, but that is not where my concern is. It is the slower portions of a commute that concern me. And driving slower in them isn't going to help as much as above. I also estimated the overhead effect at these speeds in less mild climates to be more in the 10% range.

Ironically, you now agree with Pat about the 10%

And of course, driving slower violates the "all else being equal." This is particularly true when one has already burned ~half the charge going to a destination, but the weather has changed for the return trip...or they hit unexpected congestion/detours, etc.

No, it does not. Parked and at very low speeds this will not be true as the fixed energy consumption for climate control, electronics, and lighting will exceed the aerodynamic loss reduction.

Still waiting for a response to your math error and my explanation.

You know, it really torques me when I pose a fairly specific concern with a solid technical basis, and someone tries to blow it off with a BS explanation with all sorts of holes in it, then plays the victim. If you care ot have an honest technical discussion, great. Save the sales snow job for someone else.

 

so after a LOT OF YELLING AND SCREAMING...

is the question of;

"is EV's the right way to go" been addressed?

is the benefit to the environment, our kids future, the economic future of the United States worth the personal sacrifice to invest in a technology that does not meet 100% of current transportation technology?

is 100% clean and renewable technology worth the trouble to investigate a potentially major change in your lifestyle?

now, after answering those questions, answer this one.

what is the impact of a negative opinion concerning a little known technology on an uninformed public? especially when these comments tend to circulate around the internet for years while being taken increasingly out of context ?

 

How was your life in the diplomatic peace corps in Iraq? Successful? I only assume that's where you learnt your diplomatic skills.
I made no assumptions about how you drive or what you consumption figures were, I gave some ball park estimations so you can see the sums and add your own numbers. No one else drives like you so no one else can give an idea of your range reduction due to extreme weather. I really couldn't care less about extreme weather, it never drops below freezing here in the daytime although it does get hot.
Work on the old boating fuel requirement method, one third to go out, one third to get back, and one third just in case. So if predicted range is 100 miles don't plan a round trip over 66 miles. If you need to go further take the other car. See that wasn't hard.

 

I like your boating example, but remember MOST car trips will include a stop somewhere near an electrical outlet! A 100 mile range (even decreased by weather, speed or all uphill) will work for 75%-80% of our trips and carrying a extension cord could up that 90%+.

And of course, Shawn, your mileage may vary.

 

Apparently the same place you and darrel got yours. It's funny how undiplomatic you can be yet consider yourself an innocent babes. I didn't come in here to fight, and was complimentary of the car, but darrel got so ridiculously protective that he couldn't even make a reasoned analysis of the element that is likely to be of most concern.

Well, I certainly went way over your head. Of course I'm going to discount some range, just like I do with any vehicle. By your logic it is just best to dismiss the vehicle altogether because I might need to go over 2/3 of its range sometime before giving it a full charge. See that wasn't hard.

The question was/is, how much impact can this have on commuting in extreme conditions. It is much more important on a vehicle with one major Achilles heel--it's range is much shorter than traditional vehicles so one has to consider the uses in ways that would not be necessary in other vehicles. The second major problem is that it can't be recharged in between in a reasonable manner. That is what I was getting at. As I said I didn't consider it a show stopper, and thought a little honest discourse would be useful.

If the actual predicted range is 76 miles I would probably trim the margins somewhat anyway, but in mid winter that might not be enough or require further trimming. (Another question I had was whether the range would deteriorate slightly over say 5 years, but at this point I really don't care anymore.)

Based on the EV folks' defensive response in this and other threads, to hell with it. It's going to be pricey anyway for a limited use vehicle, the range is still short and I can't trust EV experts to make an honest appraisal. I was a bit intrigued by this one, but that interest has been thoroughly squashed by zealots. Congrats! I will be far less accepting of EV claims in the future.

 

Yep, but will you have permission to use the power?
I think an EV with 100 mile range which I drive a maximum or 66 miles per trip would do me for about 90% of my total mileage. If I go on a longer trip I would take my wifes car as either she would be with me or, if she stayed home the EV would do her commute easily as her commute is shorter than mine. My commute is about 80km (50 miles) per day.

Shawn, I really hope you don't include me as an EV expert of any kind, I am most definitely not. My comments about your diplomacy are in relation to your rather hurtful response to my input to the discussion.

Ouch, I was only trying to help.
I suggest you leave the EVs to others.

 

Ignoring Shawn's nasty tone, I agree with his calcs and comments. Heating in particular will have to be somewhere in the back of the mind of EV owners who are pushing the distance envelope. Actually perhaps even more so if the battery pack has additional heating requirements.

I seem to remember that the EPA tests cars in cold weather these days. Perhaps they were thinking ahead, for once.

 

Shawn –

We got off on the wrong foot. And I take responsibility for my “know it all†attitude that can sometimes get away from me. I had full intention of just walking away from this thread after my last post, but for all my other faults, I’m no quitter! Once my offered information was deemed unsuitable, I lost my happy place, and things went to crap.

While I don’t profess to be an expert on EVs, I do have significant experience with them. I have about 100k miles of EV driving on our various cars, and I communicate daily with hundreds of other drivers of production EVs. I have data monitors on the cars, separate meters on the chargers… I *know* what happens when I drive and charge an EV.

I have nothing to sell, and the accusation that I’m selling BS is a hard one to swallow. I donate about 1000 hours of my time each year to the EV cause. I spend money on my web site and travel to educate both adults and children. I make no money on any of my EV advocacy. None. And while it sounds way too trite – I do this because I want to help make a better world. EVs are not the end game that will save us from ourselves. But they are one part of the puzzle, and I work to educate people on what it is like to live with these vehicles since I am in a relatively unique position of having owned three over the past nine years.

If I wanted to learn about something that I have no experience with, I could research it, do some math and come up with a pretty good conclusion. But I wouldn’t trust my conclusions until I asked an expert, or somebody who at least had direct experience with the subject.

I fully admit that I have ignored your pleas to confirm or refute your math. I’m in a quandary here. I cannot deny that your math is correct, and yet you are claiming that my personal experience with EVs is irrelevant. First because I live in CA, and second because I am apparently trying to sell BS. Your math may very well be exactly on the dot. And that’s great. I started off by answering your concern about the HVAC system’s impact in range for EVs. The information I offered comes from my experience, and the experience of others living all across the US and the world. Some in very cold and some in very hot climates. There will always be extremes that fall outside of this data. And if the concern is what happens when the car is stopped, or creeping along at 1mph, well… there’s no mystery. Your range will be reduced. How much? Depends on how long you sit there and many other factors that will be different for every situation. There is no question that an EV burns up range while it sits there eating up power with devices that don’t move the car. Yet that wasn’t the question that I initially attempted to answer.

I deal with people every day who claim to have irrefutable evidence that what I experience with my EVs can’t happen. I’m told that I can’t drive 80 mph in my Rav4EV. I’m told that I can’t drive 130 miles on battery power. I’m told that charging it every day is a big inconvenience. I’m told that my batteries will have to be replaced every two or three years. I'm told that my car burns coal. I’m told these things as fact, and if I say anything different, I’m just selling my BS because there are articles, books, talk shows, blogs, and calculations that confirm I’m wrong. It is quite similar to the Prius situation. How many non-Prius drivers *know* that the car can’t possibly get over 45 mpg unless some crazy hypermiling is performed? How many *know* that a Prius is best compared to a Corolla? And Mr. Spinalla has done the math to determine that a Hummer is more environmentally friendly than a Prius. Those of us who own a Prius know – without even having to do the math – that this stuff is wrong.

So how do I respond to this thread? I just looked back to see how it started. Seemed mild enough, and then went bad.

You wondered how the iMiEV would cope with “mid-winter and mid-summer†and I responded with, “Likely very well - similar to how all the other production cars have done... but better since this is with Li.â€

I have no regrets about that answer. It was a somewhat general question, and I answered it in a general, honest, no BS way. It apparently was not enough…

You responded with, “Remains to be seen because of the AC/heating system impact on range. So what I wonder is what the range will be in a commute where the heat or air conditioning are required.â€

And this is where I started to have trouble. Notice otice that the question began as being ONLY about the impact of AC on range. The impact of being stopped with the AC on was brought up much later. The question sort of morphed other concerns as we went along ticking each other off.

So the point of AC usage in the summer heat is what I was initially trying to respond to - even while the target started to move. And while the impact of range from summer AC use still “remains to be seen†for you… It does NOT remain to be seen for me, or thousands of other production EV drivers. I have personally seen this very scenario for eight summers in an EV. And we regularly see temps well over 100° where I live – making my directly measured, personal experience quite relevant. So then we got into other aspects of range reduction, and some math. And my math was in error, and your math proved that I was wrong. Definitely better if I hadn’t even brought up “math.†To me the math is a great way of estimating when there is no hard data. But isn't direct experience even more important than a back of the envelope calculation? Can a calculation actually prove that what I experience directly is wrong? You wondered what the HVAC impact on range is… and I happen to KNOW what it is from practical experience driving these cars in the heat and the cold. And because I told you what I know and, I was accused of selling BS and not even being able to support my BS. I didn’t respond to that very well, and we just crawled into the gutter with it.

If I ignore my experience and confirm your math, have either of us learned anything? If I admit that my Prius math was in error, and that the Prius is significantly impacted by having the headlights on while stopped… have we learned anything about the impact of HVAC usage in an EV?

So… this is way too long already. Is there any chance – any chance at ALL of starting over here? Go WAY back to the beginning and ignore the “you said/I said stuff?†I have plenty of data here (much of it on my site) that can likely help with your questions. I’m not interested in revisiting the Prius math stuff. Hell, I have almost no Prius experience as compared to EV experience and truly should not have brought that up. I would like to try and fix whatever it is that I helped break here. If it helps the discussion - I would not buy an EV with 75 miles of range if my commute between charges was anything near 75 miles.

Is there a concise question about EV range that I can help answer?

 

All I know is, I'd rather pay 20k$ + and have an additional Highway Capable vehicle with a limited EV range - than to pay nearly the same for PHEV.

Just like new cellphones on a new plan, you're getting the batteries & tech at a discount when buying a brand new Mitsubishi iMIEV. With HYMOTION you have to pay retail, since there isn't a huge market yet.

Being in Montreal, Quebec, winter driving is a huge consideration. I actually have to use a 500w indoor heater inside the Prius with a timer, something I never had to do with other cars that produce red-hot Defrost air within a minute.

So with an EV - plugging in for not only the batteries, but a 'space heater' on a timer, so that driving off in the morning at sub-0 temperatures, the car is already warm.

My biggest worry is that the battery pack will only perform at 50% in sub-zero weather, so I must make sure I'm ok for a one-way winter trip. Or else I'll use the Prius.

If the iMIEV is a true "Pulse" 100 miles - then I think it's actually over-amped. If I could have a 50 mile version for 10,000$ less, I would get that instead.

 

We're certainly are on the same page with this!

I didn't get a firm answer on how this will work for the iMiEV, but with my EV1 and currently with my Rav4EV, there is a built-in pre-conditioner. Just tell the HVAC system when you plan to leave in the morning and it will heat the cabin from *shore power* so when you drive away on battery you are toasty and ready for action. In the hot months, it will pre-cool the car for your trip home as well. This is simple to do with EVs that do not need to "run" in order to work the HVAC. It will certainly be included on any full-feature EV.

Lead acid is severely effected by the cold. NiMH less so. And Li-ion the least of the common chemistries. There will certainly be a reduction in efficiency/range in sub-zero temps, but the lead-acid EV1's weren't even seeing a 50% reduction when they were tested in extreme conditions.

 

well i am on board with that also. its beginning to become obvious that a car that plugs in and uses gas will either be VERY limited in range or VERY expensive (could be both).

as usual, there are a TON of announcements for EV's of various capabilities on the horizon, and i am pretty much putting all purchase decisions on hold until i can buy a full EV that does;

1) 4 passenger or more

2) highway capable (as long as it does at least 60 mph, i am fine, i dont have any issues whatsoever with putting in the slow lane)

3) range of 100+ miles

4) cost under $30,000

i have decided that for the time being barring an option that is apparently not available any time soon (long range EV) i will not be getting rid of my Prius since for the three of us, there is no other vehicle that is even on the same page that covers my needs as well.

 

In fact, when GM fielded their electric car to select people a few years ago one of the aerospace engineers who received one built his own charge trailer. I also believe this might be the best compromise. If the power pack was as sophisticated as Toyota and others are capable of making it (rather than a Honda emergency generator) it would still be very efficient, probably better than a dual-power hybrid.

 

Are you talking about the EV1? I hadn't seen nor heard of a charging trailer behind an EV1. Cool!

Here's the Long Ranger that Toyota contracted to have built.
Rav Long Ranger

(ED: I notice that a link to Steve Hawkin's Long Ranger was posted earlier in the thread - and that same trailer is the one shown on the bottom of my page linked above. Small world).

 

Here for your info-tainment is a nifty little video that shows snippets of
road testing the i-MIev.

http://x.wieck.com/xadVideos/mitsu/2009/06/04/iMiEV.mpg

Here's a better version, but I can't get it to embed or whatever it's called:

http: //www.blip.tv/file/2232007/
(You have to take out the space after http)

Comments:
A "rough road?" Hardly.
It really looks cold in the "cold weather start test."
Apparently waterproof/resistant up to axle depth water... cool.

And here is the first "in depth" report on the Sport Air that I've found:

Technial Specifications:
Overall length: 3,650 mm
Overall width: 1,600 mm
Overall height: 1,520 mm
Wheelbase: 2,550 mm
Track F/R: 1,405 / 1,405 mm
The number of passengers: 4
Vehicle weight: 940 kg
Motor output: 60 kW
Motor torque: 230 Nm
Battery system: 330V lithium-ion
Drive mode: Rear wheel drive
Tires: 175/50R17

Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport Air Concept (2009) with pictures and wallpapers

"Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport Air Concept's color & trim follows a "Japanese
Technology" theme, combining the approachable image and the high-tech
spirit of environmentally-friendly devices:

"The blue exterior color evokes the openness of clear blue skies, while the
use of a pearl finish effect gives a bluish sheen to the body highlights the
car's eco-friendly image."

Forget the baby blue exerior. If this car came in an in-your-face, full bodied
red, I'd be going to California, where I fear they will be first sold, to get one.
Don't ask me how I'd get it back to Merlin... tow it behind Amapola maybe?

http://priuschat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18558&stc=1&d=1252813329

from here:

Project: Chinese Wildfire 250-C - EcoModder.com