Chevy Volt Deathwatch - DOE puts funds on hold

Re: Yahoo Homepage says Volt to be on dealer lots in Nov2010

the fact that the only two EV's out there now belongs to two of the most successful car companies in their area...hmmm. well, that fact is a HUGE factor in my loyalty stance today. i have not owned something other than Toyota or Ford for more than 15 years (EV's excepted) in fact, that is what i still own today.

but that is not the point. GM caused the others to do it. the fact that Ford and Toyota realized GM's mistake in time means a little, but lets face it... after all this time, you still back GM's decision???

that is the real question here, because i betcha Honda, et all, wish they could take it back... i also betcha GM does not and i also betcha GM wishes that the Prius had NEVER HAPPENED

 

It was just a little joke, sorry the funny bone seems hard to find today.

I was in Detroit in January and the view from my hotel window was of an abandoned sports stadium and a high-rise building with no windows or internal walls, closer to the hotel were boarded up houses but worse, houses that should have been boarded up that had people living in them.
you can take a tour of the city on the internet if you like, all the finest building are in this tour. The Fabulous Ruins of Detroit

 

Re: Yahoo Homepage says Volt to be on dealer lots in Nov2010

GM didn't make or cause any other manufacturer to do anything. Toyota didn't actively lobby against and file lawsuits against CARB's EV mandate because GM made them do it. If anything they would gain by not joining these efforts. Had Toyota not joined the lawsuits and lobbying efforts they could have projected an environmentally clean image while still benefiting if GM was successful in overturning the mandate. Toyota joined these efforts because they thought it was in their best interest to do so and because they were opposed to making electric vehicles. Toyota has also actively lobbied and litigated against every CARB increase and attempts by states to limit CO2.

GM did not cause Toyota to discontinue their RAV4 EV program the day after CARB removed the EV mandate. GM did not cause Toyota to refuse to sell leased vehicles at the end of lease and to refuse to renew leases. GM did not cause Toyota to crush the RAV4 EV's that they took from their customers. Again, Toyota did these things on their own.

Toyota did all these things because they wanted to and they thought it was in the best interest of Toyota to do so. The difference between Toyota and the rest of the manufacturers is that Toyota made the mistake of outright selling RAV4 EV's to the public. In 2002 Toyota changed their mind and sold 328 RAV4 EV's while previously they had only leased vehicles. By selling vehicles they obligated themselves to provide parts and service for these vehicles.

Yes, Toyota publicly relented in the face of don'tcrush.org's media campaign in 2005. They did agree to allow some lessees to buy their cars or extend their leases. However, their true colors returned after don'tcrush.org had declared victory and changed their name to pluginamerica. In 2006, Toyota was still crushing the majority of RAV4 EV's that came off lease. They used the a clause in the agreement that allowed them to reclaim and crush "vehicles at the end of their sustainable life". Burnt Orange Report::: Who is Still Killing the Electric Car? Toyota. Help Stop Them.

"Toyota does not support retail sales of fleet vehicles when they reach the end of their lease. The fleet vehicles are typically used in commercial applications, are subject to harsh duty cycles and accumulate high miles. As we expected, at the end of the lease period, most are ready to retire from service. As parts supplies diminish, most of these vehicles are not feasible (parts no longer available) nor cost-effective (parts are too expensive) to operate or support. Therefore, we decided to recycle most of RAV4-EVs that we could recover at the end of five years."

I find it amazing that "MOST" RAV4-EV's were ready for retirement after only 5 years of use.

Toyota has:

• been dismissive of plug-in vehicles since they killed of the RAV4-EV.
• Stressed the the Prius did not have to be plugged in.
• Discouraged attempts of individuals to convert their vehicles to PHEV's.
• Spread disinformation that plug-in vehicles create more pollution than gasoline vehicles
• Stressed that PHEV's are not commercially viable

It was only after GM announced they would build the Volt that Toyota suddenly changed their mind about PHEV's and decided to build one.

Some have asked for quotes of these positions. I'll point you to calcars.org. They have an extensive archive of news stories and official manufacturer quotes. But a few:

"They say this is the next great thing, but it just isn't" ..."The electric utilities really want to sell electricity and they want to sell it to the transportation sector because that expands their market. They have an agenda". -- Business Week

"That said, we also recognize that there are limitations to plug-in hybrids. As you well know, the true environmental impact of a plug-in depends on the source of the electrical charge. Coal-burning power plants do not lessen the greenhouse gas production and criteria pollutants increase. Secondly, to create a vehicle that meets consumers' needs, a breakthrough in battery technology in regard to capacity, durability and cost, is necessary. Outside experts predict this isn't likely to happen this decade."

"Customers," says Ed LaRocque, "are not telling us plug-in hybrids are something they'd like to see at no cost, let alone what we estimate would be an additional $15,000." (TIME MAGAZINE)

Toyota spokeswoman Cindy Knight warned that EDrive's modifications will void the Prius' power train warranty, and said the company is "dubious" about a pluggable Prius. "Right now we don't see this as commercially viable," she said. "We think there need to be breakthroughs in battery technology to make it commercially viable." (WIRED)

"So you have a higher up-front cost, a heavier vehicle that gets less fuel economy with less performance, and the prospect of replacing the battery during [the car's] life," he says....Toyota's Hermance insists that, barring a spectacular breakthrough in battery chemistry, the cost of nickel-metal hydride batteries will remain around $1100/kWh for the foreseeable future. He concedes that the Prius's nickel-metal hydride battery packs have become significantly cheaper since Toyota began producing the car for the Japanese market in late 1997--power densities have gone up, allowing the car to get the same acceleration with a smaller battery pack. But energy density hasn't really improved, so energy storage remains as expensive as ever. (IEEE SPECTRUM)

"Almost 60 per cent of U.S. electricity is generated by burning coal - so (we're) not sure plugging in cars in the end offers very much environmental benefit," the company says, adding that it may be "trading one form of emissions for another." (TORONTO STAR)

I see Toyota as a company no different than any other. They are interested in their bottom line and nothing more. They happen to build the Prius, a car that gets exceptionally good mileage. Toyota has very successfully used the popularity of the Prius as an environmental smokescreen to divert attention away from their rapid expansion into the production of trucks and SUV's and opposition to any attempt to increase CAFE standards of pollution control.

I like my Prius but I can't get excited about the company that built it.


Do I back GM's decision to crush the EV-1? From a financial standpoint yes. There is not doubt that GM saved money by not having to support a tiny population of EV-1's with service and parts support. However, it was a huge publicity blunder. GM should have done what Ford did and sold the vehicle to owners but made them sign a release stating the owner was completely on their own for service and parts. That agreement was the best of both worlds for Ford.

 

I don't have anything against Canada. They did such a good job cleaning up & restoring the Sudbury nickel mine I figure they should be able to do the same for Detroit.

 

This is depressing news for me.

I was excited for Obama to get elected because I thought we'd finally have a leader who saw the importance of America leading in technological innovation and green energy.

Now it seems even those who voted for him are willing to flush our future down the toilet out of anger, while Europe and Asia take a further lead.

I hate GM as much as anyone, but the Volt was their chance to turn things around.

 

JSH, no I am not arguing that Toyota is perfect or is a saint.
What I am arguing is that GM is much worse.
I can only answer 'why' as to why I feel that is the case.

I feel GM had the best EV on the road with the EV1.
I feel that GM's marketing ads for the EV1 were intentionally counter-producting. Not only in not getting people interested, but in turning people off of the idea. At the very least, it did nothing to educate people about a new technology which very few were even aware existed.
Toyota and Ford DID realize there was some demand and agreed to let people have the cars. I agree with you that Ford's answer (having the purchasers sign the release) was the best for the manufacturer.
Yes, you found some quotes from people connected with Toyota critical of plug in technology. Nothing to the publicity and level of disdain as Wagoner called the Prius a 'toy' and hybrids in general a fad.

I understand the reasoning. Designing and selling hybrids would be at a loss for years (especially with the legacy costs GM has). So basically, sit back, build high profit huge vehicles and pray gas prices don't spike. But the public perception and lack of planning issues are what are killing (have killed?) GM.

Many/most of the hymotion conversions are done at Toyota dealerships. I don't suspect that shows Toyota as being as anti-plugin as you seem to.
I also believe Toyota had plans for a plug in prior to GM announcing the Volt. They have had the build in EV switch in Japan for quite some time.
I suspect they plug in had to wait until they could get away from the Nickle batteries as they were not allowed to make larger batteries by the patent holder (Chevron, I believe).

 

I can only tell you why I feel what I feel. The great thing is that we can have different opinions and still go on with life.

I don't really see much a difference between any of the major auto manufactures. If you were to ask me which is the most environmentally responsible I would personally say Honda.

I also understand that this is a Toyota forum and many people here have a special connection to the manufacturer of their car. I'm not really one of these people as I'm not very if at all brand loyal. I look at the product I want to purchase and find the one that fits my needs best. In the case of my last automobile purchase it was a Prius. In the past I have owned 1 GMC, 1 Chevy, 2 Ford, 1 Porsche, 1 Nissan, 2 VW, and now 1 Toyota. I can't tell you who I will purchase my next car from.

 

Not really sure if this is off-topic or not, but interesting and also sad:

Sweet Juniper!

Panorama shot of street in Northern Detroit where 60 of 66 houses have been abandoned.

 

It is very sad. I grew up in Saginaw, Michigan and my parents still live there. Entire sections of Saginaw look like that picture.

I went to school at Kettering University in downtown Flint, MI. (Used to be General Motors Institute). The rental house I lived in had animals living in the attic, a tarp hung in the attic to divert rain that leaked through the roof out through holes bashed through the eves, and the front porch had started to fall off. Only one burner on our electric range / oven worked. That was in 1997, it has gotten much worse since then.

Both Saginaw and Flint are former auto manufacturing towns. At its peak Saginaw had at least 10 automotive facilities but they are now down to only 3 with 2 of those are scheduled to close by 2010. Flint had even more automotive dominated industry and is in even worse shape.

I have to give Flint credit for trying though. Today the city government is actively attempting to shrink the city by relocating the few remaining residents in some blocks to other areas. The intent is to relocate people and then clear all the abandoned homes to create green space.

 

On Earth Day Toyota annouced the price structure for the 3rd generation Prius. and during all the hoopla and debates over option packages and best combinations, apparently no one here noticed that on the day after Earth Day, Toyota renegged on the promise to bring the plug-in Prius to market in Spetember 2009. They quietly announced that they may never sell the plug-in Prius to the general public.
I consider this a betrayal. Any company that lies to me does not get my business. And I am a 2001 Prius owner. so now I will advise everyone to avoid forming a relationship with a company that is quickly, at least as quickly as GM slides under the waves, becoming the new GM, demostrating the same short sighted "What's good for us, is good for us, and screw the world!.

 

I have never heard Toyota promise to produce a PHEV Prius for the general public in 2009. All of heard is that they would be building 500 to test and 150 would come to the US for fleet sales. The soonest release date for the general public was fall 2010 as a 2011 model. (Same as Volt)

Lately I've been reading that the public won't get a PHEV until at least 2012. I really don't expect Toyota to build a PHEV unless GM builds the Volt or another major manufacturer commits to building PHEV's.

SAE 2009: Toyota plug-in Prius (and 3rd-gen Prius) update
"To get a little bit of clarification on the reported 12-mile EV-only range that the plug-in Prius is achieving in current testing, we spoke with Toyota Prius vehicle specialist Stephanie Wohlgamuth, who is working at the Toyota booth here at the SAE World Congress. Wohlgamuth said that the number is fairly accurate, and that the vehicles are currently driving between seven and 14 miles on electrons only. While this is notably shorter than the Volt's 40-mile EV-only target, Toyota is giving itself time to work on the technology. Wohlgamuth said that the PHEV Prius will only be available as leased vehicles for fleets through 2012. All we can do is speculate as to when the purchase date for individual customers will be – Wohlgamuth wouldn't say if late 2012 or early 2013 was even in the ballpark."

 

Good news for Tesla. If you're rooting for American Autos, the dithering of all the major manufacturers is good news, since we have one company that needs that window to stay open as long a possible.

 

Re: Yahoo Homepage says Volt to be on dealer lots in Nov2010

As you say ... "Life goes on". They also say, "History repeats itself". And here we are, rushing to the defense of poor poor GM ... making excuses for them. I call it, "johnnycat-revisited" because he too, for whatever inexplicable reason, loved to "make excuses" for GM. Say GM is wrong, & here it comes ... "well, Toyota did it too"

Everyone with kids has to listen to this stupid 'defense' ... which really aint a defense:

"... that's not fair! He hit me first!"
"... that's not fair! She keeps looking at me!"
"... that's not fair! He keeps touching me!"
"... that's not fair! She won't stay on her own side!"

Heck, we adults are no better:
"that's not fair! The palistinians hit us first!"
"that's not fair! The jews are persecuting us!"

GM doesn't need excuses. They don't NEED anybody to tell us that life is not fair. We already know it. Heck even GM is mature enough not to cry, "well THEY did it too". The same stupid behavior is NOT a defense ... and we all KNOW ever one else in the universe does wrong too. There's a TON of prior threads where this invalid - piss poor - alabi didn't wash. But as stated infra ... history repeats itself ... as well as life goes on.

Seems like I remember watching the Bulls game a long time ago, and someone fouled. The guy raised his hand as the foul whistle was blowing. That's character ... that's integrity. Admit it ... and suck it up, rather than run up to the ref, crying, he pushed me first! Then again, it seems the later behavior is more in vogue.

 

This pic says alot...anyone have other EV crushed pics from Toyota...or Honda...or Ford?

 

Watch "Who Killed the Electric Car". You can see video of Honda EV+ vehicles being crushed and shredded.

 

GM-Volt.com Chevy Volt Mule Test Drive w/ Video | GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site

Here's a nice "test-drive" web page recently published. I think it's that guy who used to post here on PC. So near, and yet so far, if the DOE funds don't continue. What a mess. I hope the Prius PHEV testing hurrys up.