How Toyota Deals with Lemons--BADLY

A couple of years ago or so, I posted my saga of complete CVT failure in my 2001 Prius (had about 70-80K miles). After a month of arguing with Toyota (and no car in the meantime), and getting quoted as much as $12000 for the repair for a part that could only be broken due to a) design defect or b) manufacturing defect, I ended up paying $2500 for the repair.

A few months after that repair, the HV ECU went out. That is an $800 fix.

Less than a month ago, I had to have the entire exhaust system replaced. Toyota dealership (Libertyville Toyota) wanted over $2000 for that fix; I got the repair done for well under $2000 at a local repair shop. At the same time Libertyville reported the exhaust failure, they told me I needed to replace the $800 HV ECU again. Libertyville told me they only warranted parts for one year so tough luck--I'd need to spend another $800 to replace it (again).

I decided to wait on replacing that part, drove it for another 3 weeks. A couple of days ago, the car stopped working altogether. After towing it to a different dealership (since there is little education to be had in the second kick of a horse), I am now told that I have a complete hybrid battery system failure: both entire battery plus the computer must be replaced. Parts are $4900.

Even in the "honeymoon periods" between these repairs, it never particularly ran well. It has always felt a bit like the fuel pump was bad (which I was always told was my imagination). The mileage has dropped steadily over the years; in the last few, I've gotten about 37-39 in the winter, and 42-44 in the summer. (I'm a gas-sipping driver.) Moreover, these were only the major repairs. I've spent about another $5000 on top of the above listed for various other minor repairs (such as oil leaks).

Anyway, thought you'd like to hear my story as you consider the long term reliability of the Prius, but more importantly, as you consider how well Toyota stands behind its product. I also write to offer for a sale a very large, green paper weight (with 113,000 miles on it). Anyone interested?

 

I just reread my old saga--the original quote on the CVT was closer to $9-10K. Not sure where I got the $12,000 from in my memory--probably it was the cost of not just the CVT, but the total cost including several other things that I had repaired at the same time. The final cost of $2500 for that repair is right, though.

 

I agree, it stinks. The question for you (and Toyota) is: why in God's name would I get another Prius? Seriously--I know Priuses are reliable. But some are lemons. When you are buying a car, you are also buying the company that makes it, and their willingness to stand behind their product, and make good on the few lemons that slip through.

I have had literally dozens of people ask me about my Prius experience, and about the long term reliability and issues I've had. I seriously wonder what Toyota expects me to tell them? Of course, I tell them the truth about my personal experience with the car. And sadly (for Toyota) I can't think of a single person who has bought a Prius after talking to me. Two have bought Honda Civic Hybrids.

 

The car was not six years old. It was also debatable whether it should have been under warranty (isn't the CVT part of the 100K power train? According to Toyota, no.) Moreover, they gave me no "bargain"--I paid $2500, which is how much it would have cost me to buy a junkyard CVT and have it installed. Probably a few hundred more, in fact, but I was sick of it all and needed a car.

The car cost, what, about $19,000 back in 2001? (I forget, but that's about right.) Since then, it has cost about that same amount in maintenance and repair. This, in an eight year old car, with a little over 100K miles on it.

Sounds like a lemon to me. If I were Toyota, I'd be alarmed. They are not. Hey, to each his own business model. But I sure as hell am going to tell people about it.

 

Galaxee, it was for a rebuilt Toyota part, if I recall correctly. Might have been new; not sure. Sure didn't feel like any bargain, especially given it took about 40 hours of work on my part to get them to make good. In retrospect, of course, I should have simply trashed it. But each additional hour you put in is only one additional hour.

And I agree, Toyota has had no obligation to pay for any of this. I've never threatened to sue; it's Toyota's choice about whether they wish to make the early adopters happy. They've chosen not to. And I've chosen to inform people of Toyota's decisions.

Do you know any non-dealer fixit shops in Chicago who'd fix a bad battery AND replace the computer? (Apparently it needs both.) If not, any guesstimates on how much I could get for this car, selling it as a parts junker? (With brand new tires, exhaust system, brakes, naturally. grrrrrrr.....)

 

"And, you cannot call your used car a Lemon, as these failures did not occur near the beginning of the life of the car. And who knows what it was through before you bought it."

It does not fit the "legal" definition of a lemon. Once again, I have not threatened to sue Toyota. However, that the Prius has only suffered the same level of failures as a mid-1990's Ford is hardly praise. You are right, these failures have happened at a high rate on Gen 1 Prius. You would think Toyota would worry about that. I know plenty of my friends have worried about it--who's to say, for instance, that all the whiz-bang new features of the 2010 won't similarly fail at spectacular rates 60K miles in?

If they do, and if my experience is any guide, get out your pocketbooks. Toyota certainly won't give a sh*t.

I see you are in Chicago--do you know of anyone who fixes Priuses, including the hybrid battery/computer fixes, who is NOT a dealer? That is, one who would happily use a salvaged part? Even though I despise this car from the depths of my soul, it would still be cheaper to fix than to replace, as it always is with cars until they literally rust away. And I'm a frugal girl (despite spending many thousands of dollars in repair on this beast.)

 

Thanks, Auricchio. But do you want to hear the sad part? Now that I am looking for a new car to buy (something I had hoped I wouldn't have had to do for at least another five years), I keep finding Toyota models that I like. And hearing about this 2010 Prius? Makes my mouth water.

Maybe this is why Toyota can afford to treat those few owners whose cars turn out to be complete manufacturing/design disasters poorly--they unambiguously make (new) cars that people want. Honestly, if Toyota called me on Monday and said, "We've reviewed your case, and agree that this car should never have suffered the panoply of failures it has--how about we take the car off your hands for $5000 and you buy a 2010 Prius with it?" then I would do it in a heartbeat. I think I am like a battered spouse when it comes to cars.

Anyway, I've pretty much decided to buy the world's most reliable, boring, cost-efficient car ever: a gasoline-powered Honda Civic. My internal debate is only whether I should buy it new or used.

 

Thanks, Patrick. I'll post here to see if anyone knows a good Toyota specialist in Chicago.

 

I haven't claimed it met the legal definition of "lemon"--but in my mind, it quite clearly meets the lay definition. 1) the CVT failed catastrophically at about 75K miles. 2) the exhaust system needed complete replacement at 112K miles. 3) now the entire hybrid battery system has suffered catastrophic failure and must be replaced, at 113K miles. I have not even mentioned the fact that I have been through 3 of the "small" batteries at over $200 a pop, and (I think) 3 sets of tires, nor the HV ECU that went bad and had to be replaced at about 85K miles (and supposedly needs to be replaced again 20K miles later). As someone else pointed out, these are each problems that have occured at high rates on Gen 1 Priuses. I happen to have won the lottery and suffered them all.

You give good advice re: going up the Toyota food chain. However, I did that before, when the CVT blew, and it remains one of the more frustrating experiences of my life. It took a month of carefully written, fed-exed letters (which included others suffering the same problem in the same model year), many, many phone calls (often unreturned), etc. Toyota may make great cars, but when they make a lemon (a lay lemon), they are utterly unresponsive. I would be perfectly happy with an offer to, for instance, trade-in the car for, say, $5000 (about what it would be worth with a working battery) and actually buy a 2010. (Yeah, I'm a glutton for punishment that way.) But that's not going to happen, unless I spend another month's worth of wheedling and begging and arguing with the faceless monster of Toyota Motors. And in the end, it's just not worth it.

The reason I bought a Toyota Prius was because of the price (including the expected gas savings), coupled with stellar reliability records. That is literally all I care about in a car: price, mpg, reliability in equal measures. I don't like thinking about cars, less still about my own car. I want to get my oil changes and my inspections and every few years do an expected/inevitable repair or two. Toyota has failed me miserably in this regard.