ZENN Motor Company Confirms EEStor's Third-Party Certified Permittivity

The above statement says nothing useful.

The use of the passive voice leaves open the question: "Expected by whom???" I talked to a guy about two years ago who "expected" the EEStor capacitors to be on the market 4 months later. "Expectations" are worth no more than the ability of the person doing the expecting to predict the future.

"If real" is the operative term. And if the "expectations" mentioned above come to pass. They may indeed build a capacitor, but it may not have the energy density "expected" ot the cost "expected," etc., etc., etc.

 

I've never seen a Forward-looking Information written as the following

Certain statements in this release, other than statements of historical fact, may include forward-looking information that involves various risks and uncertainties that face the Company; such statements may contain such words as "may", "would", "could", "will", "intend", "plan", "anticipate", "believe", "estimate", "expect" and similar expressions, and may be based on management's current assumptions and expectations related to all aspects of the automotive industry, consumer demand for zero emission transportation solutions and the global economy. Risks anduncertainties that may face the Company include, but are not restricted to: the EEStor energy storage technology, to which the Company has certain rights, is still under development and may not be successfully commercialized at all, in a manner providing the features and benefits claimed by EEStor while under development, or on a timely basis or the Company may not be able to successfully incorporate this technology into its current or proposed products; the Company could fail in its efforts to develop a viable ZENNergy Drivetrain or cityZENN solution or do so on a timely basis; steps taken by the Company to protect its proprietary rights may not be adequate or third parties may infringe or misappropriate the Company's proprietary rights; the Company has a history of losses from operations and may not be able to obtain financing, if and when required, to fund future expenditures for general administrative activities, including sales and marketing and research and development, expansion, strategic acquisitions or investment opportunities or to respond to competitive pressures; competitors may develop products which offer greater benefits to consumers, have greater market appeal or are more competitively priced than those offered by the Company; the Company may be exposed to product liability claims which exceed insurance policy limits; the Company is dependent on the ability and experience of a relatively small number of key personnel; new products introduced by the Company may not be accepted in the market or to the extent projected; new laws and regulations may be enacted or existing ones may be applied or governmental action may be taken in a manner which could limit or curtail the production or sale of the Company's products; and the Company may be negatively affected by reduced consumer spending due to the uncertainty of economic and geopolitical conditions. These risks and uncertainties may cause actual results to differ from information contained in this release, when estimates and assumptions have been used to measure and report results.
There can be no assurance that any statements of forward-looking information contained in this release, including claims made by EEStor regarding the expected benefits of its EESU, will prove to be accurate. Actual results and future events could differ materially from those anticipated in such statements. These and all subsequent written and oral statements containing forward-looking information are based on the estimates and opinions of management on the dates they are made and expressly qualified in their entirety by this notice. Except as required by applicable laws, the Company assumes no obligation to update forward-looking statements should circumstances or management's estimates or opinions change. Readers are cautioned not to place undue reliance on any statements of forward looking information that speak only as of the date of this release. Additional information identifying risks and uncertainties relating to the Company's business are contained under the heading "Risk Factors" in ZMC's current Annual Information Form and its other filings with the various Canadian securities
regulators which are available online at Welcome to the SEDAR Web Site / Bienvenue au Site Web SEDAR.
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FOR FURTHER INFORMATION PLEASE CONTACT:
ZENN Motor Company
Catherine Scrimgeour
Manager, Public Affairs
416-535-8395 ext. 201
[email protected]

 

Hi All,

Here is another aspect of permitivity. Take two metal plates. They can be charged with respect to each other, and the more charge you put on the plate, the higher the voltage across the plates becomes. The equation for this is V=Q/C , where V is voltage, C is capacitance and Q is charge. Also, the energy stored is proportional to the charge on the capacitor plates and the square of the voltage. Energy stored is C*VSquared/2. So, the bigger the capacitance proportionately more energy can be stored.

Capacitance relates how big the plates are. Bigger plates take more charge to bring up to a given voltage. This is how super capacitors have worked to date. They have micro scale structures which increase surface area greatly compared to the plates' (carbon foam actually) volume.

The closer the plates are to each other the higher the capacitance, but the less the voltage before break-down. Some dielectric material can withstand more voltage than air, before they allow an arc-over (spark between the plates).

Capacitance is also effected by the permitivity between the plates. The permitivity of a vacumm is a fixed unchangable value that is used as a reference for all other dielectric materials. Relative Permitivity, or Dielectric Constant is the permitivity of the material divided by the permitivity of a vacumm. So, its said that air has a dielectric constant of 1. Capacitance is directly proportional to dielectric constant.

Barrium Titanate containing dielectric materials are commonly formulated with dielectric constants from 1000 to 10000 depending on the application. Have deen done for years. I believe they were an outgrowth, or at least their application was of the MIT Dielectric Lab run by Prof Von Hipple (a personality of similar fame in electrical engineering as Prof. Edgerton was in sonar and photography). A 10000 dielectric constant material inserted inbetween the plates of a capacitor will cause the capacitance to increase 10000 times. Compared to plastics (d.c. of 2 to 6) or non ferro-electric ceramics (d.c. 6 to 200) and you can see this is a big thing. As it means capactitors 10000 dielectric constant can store 10000 more energy than one with an air dielectric, at the same voltage. And if the voltage can be doubled or trippled over plates seperated by air, the ratio becomes 20000 to 30000 times. Remember from above energy storage is multiplied linearly with capacitance.


So what is the fly in this? Well lets hope not. But one possible issue that the higher dielectric constant of the Barium Titanate mixture, the more variable its capacitance is with temperature. For the EE's C0G caps are larger than Y7V and those are larger than Z5U. Meaning that each mixture has a higher dielectric constant, but you will remember each step has a progresively worse temperature characteristic.

Say you charge up a capacitor to 3500 volts, and sit it out overnight and the temp drops from 70 F to 20 F. Not unheard of in Northern Illinois. The capacitor dielectric could reduce to half its warm dielectric constant. And the voltage would double. If that voltage exceeds the break down of the dielectric thickness, all the energy on the capacitor would flow to that arc-over point, which would turn all that energy in a giant plasma. And that plasma would burn through anything it touches.

 

This EESCAM debate can be easily settled. Enough of the press release, speculation, and news reports.

MR. DICK WEIR, DELIVER A PROTOTYPE OF THE CERAMIC BATTERY WHICH YOU HAVE PUBLICLY STATED HAS BEEN, BUILT, TESTED, AND CERTIFIED TO AN INDEPENDENT REPUTABLE INSTITUTION FOR VERIFICATION. WE HAVE BEEN WAITING SINCE 2001 FOR THIS CERAMIC BATTERY.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP!

 

You're absolutely right "there are no guarantees"!
I am still waiting to purchase the water power feel good car/Zenn. Manufacturing of the vehicles was to start back in 2004 according to Ian Clifford.

Link

Alternate Energy Corporation in association with Feel Good Cars to produce affordable vehicle that operates not on fossil fuel but water.

"Take one all-electric vehicle, add an alternator to keep the battery charged, powered by an onboard internal combustion engine that runs on hydrogen, and top it off with an onboard hydrogen generating system powered by water, and you have the dream combination -- coming soon.

Alternate Energy Corporation (AEC), ticker symbol ARGY, announced Tuesday that they, together with Feel Good Cars Inc. and others, intend to produce a prototype hydrogen powered internal combustion engine electric vehicle.

With twelve prototype all-electric urban low speed vehicles on the road, Feel Good Cars (FGC) is preparing for production in September of this year, with two thousand in the first year, according to Ian Clifford, President of FGC. The ZENN™ plant is capable of manufacturing 10,000 cars a year.

Feel Good Cars intends to provide the platform and technical know-how relative to their ZENN™ electric technology, which stands for "Zero Emissions No Noise."

Limited to 25 miles per hour, the ZENN™ is a city-driving-only vehicle. As a low speed vehicle (LSV), the ZENN™ is governed by special licensing and registration stipulations that vary from state to state in the U.S.

Alternate Energy Corp (AEC) specializes in making hydrogen on the fly for a hydrogen-powered back-up power system for industries, business, and home. In this, their main project, they use a truck engine that is designed to run on hydrogen. They expect to be in production of these units also by the end of the year.

Now that they have met each other, AEC plans to retrofit a ZENN™ so it will run with electricity produced from an on-board 3-HP internal combustion engine that runs on hydrogen that is produced on the fly from water. They estimate that there will be not only enough electricity to recharge the battery, but also to run the motors.

Their objective is a hydrogen-from-water powered car that can be produced at a price affordable to middle income households..."
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Water in, water out...nice scam.

 

Come on, Steve, let's be fair: This thread was talking about Zenn and EEStor, and your reference is to a pure scam company, promising to convert a Zenn into a perpetual motion machine.

 

absolutely, let's be fair. Connect the dots.
Ian Clifford/Feel good Car/Zenn+AEC=SCAM
Ian Clifford/Zenn +EESTOR=EESCAM
Shows a pattern.

BTW-why did it take EESCAM 8 years to verify/witness this "permittivitty" test? According to Dick Weir there is no new science in this.

 

Is "definitely" the same as Ian Clifford's "imminent" delivery of EESU to ZENN in 08 ?

 

This whole EESCAM is based on hope, nothing factual since 2001.

I read there is a company named Moe, Lary, Curly Ultracapacitors Inc...MLCU Inc. claims they have a battery 10X the density of EESCAM. MLCU Inc. is hopefully going to start manufacturing the batteries by the end of the year. I am hopefully awaiting to purchase their battery...that is the same hope I have in EESCAM .

Welcome to Fred's House of Pancakes.

 

From time to time, people who ought to know better are taken in by scams. Bernard Madoff fooled some very big investors, and supposedly "everybody" thought that Enron was on the level until the fit hit the shan.

I personally think that EEStor is a scam. My reason for believing this is largely the timeline discrepancy: They are promising to market capacitors in a matter of months, when their stage of development (successful refinement of a proposed dielectric material) suggests that they are probably years away from a marketable product. Donee's excellent post explains a few of the issues that need to be resolved, and EEStor won't be able to begin addressing them until it has actual capacitors to test and experiment on. I am hopeful that ultracapacitors will be developed. I just don't believe we'll see them from EEStor in time to save Zenn and its City Car.

And when they are developed, I suspect that the breakthrough will not be a super dielectric, but rather a nano-technology that allows an enormous increase in the surface area of the plates. The surface area of your lungs is the size of a tennis court, due to all the wriggles. Something of the sort may be possible with capacitor plates, fitting a square mile of plate surface into a cubic centimeter of capacitor.

 

Fibb222, Evidently you do not know the EESCAM story from the beginning 2001. EESCAM did have a web site with their alleged claims. They were suppose to have a production facilty end of 2002 munufacturing the "EESU". Does that sound familiar.
---------------------------------------------------------------
In EESCAM's USPTO TEAS Plus Application they submitted the EESTOR trademark was
"FIRST USE ANYWHERE DATEAt least as early as 02/02/2001 FIRST USE IN COMMERCE DATEAt least as early as 02/02/2001"

Really?
----------------------------------------------------------------
The fabrication of the commercial EESUs was to commence back
in 2004. The following is Dick Weir from the UFTO:

Subject: UFTO Note - EEStor Ultracapacitor and Ultrabattery
Date: Wed, 05 May 2004

"A number of major companies have said they would issue a purchase order quickly if specs are met.

The company is currently seeking equity investment of $3.5 million. A business plan is available.

Contact Richard D. Weir, President and CEO
EEStor, Inc. Cedar Park, TX
512-258-5669 [email protected]"

What happened to all the "major companies" and their PO's?
------------------------------------------------------------

And if you want a fair and balanced picture of EESCAM/Zenn story, visit Zenn Yahoo message board I know their are a lot of immature posts on the board, but you can see from which side they are on. No one silences the skeptics.

BTW-That site you refer to EESCAM STORY.com is nothing but a pumper for EESCAM/Zenn. At the end of Dec 08, the blogger with the bag over his head was calling skeptics names and still telling them EESCAM was going to deliver the EESU end of 08 as scheduled. The whole site is based on could be, should be, would be, will be, and iffy .

 

I certainly hope you are right. But there is another interpretation for the meager revelations and lack of further information: for 7 or 8 years they've been fishing for investment capital. You have to bait the hook.

There is no secret that barium titanate is a good dielectric material. The world is full of chemists capable of doing research on refining materials. If EEStor was really as close as you say to production, with a plant all built and ready to go, they would not need to announce this permittivity test. They could just go into production and deliver product. But if it's a scam they need to keep offering tidbits to keep their investors stringing along.

There are so many issues that need to be addressed concerning limits and controls (see donee's post earlier) that it's far-fetched to think that an EEStor-powered car is less than five years away, even if EEStor is on the level.

On the other hand, as long as they can keep bringing in investment capital, they can keep paying themselves big executive salaries, and when the money tit dries up, they can just say (like GM will say about the Volt) "We tried. We really did. But in the end we encountered insurmountable obstacles." And as long as their books are in order, and they account for all the money they took for themselves as salaries, properly declared on their personal income tax forms, they'll have broken no law.

Actually, if someone can patent the phrase "Combine an on-line auction site with an on-line bnking site" and then sue PayPal/eBay for doing it, I should patent my legal scam business model:

Set up a corporation to develop a reasonable-sounding but technically impractical product which, if it existed, would revolutionize some aspect of life. Solicit investment capital. Spend some of it on research and pay yourself a massive salary, until investors give up and stop investing. Then declare "we tried" and shut down. Remaining assets are sold to pay off investors a penny on the dollar. Don't forget to pay your taxes on your massive salary, or the IRS will get you. Move to Tahiti or Pitcairn Island to avoid the civil lawsuits from your investors.

 

While I am hopeful that the product is in fact near delivery as a commercial item, I have to say that each of you have quite valid and reasonable opinions regarding the history of the claimant.

I think better capacitors are on the horizon... especially now that we have developed new ones that store the magnetic field information. If they deliver by EOY 2009, they will be able to brand their product as leading edge and have a greater share... well, if they have a product.

And evidently, you should also employ the services of the well renowned legal firm of DEWEY, CHEATHAM & HOWE.

You can't patent it... but you sure as hell could influence a scam artist to improve their rate of return.

 

This is the CEO of Zenn, Ian Clifford. Note what Ian Clifford states at 4:35 mark. Video recorded 2007.

 

Thanks for that. So, EEStor announced they'd have production units to Zenn by the end of 2007, nearly a year and a half ago, and now they have just announced that their dielectric passed the permittivity test, which is certainly an early step in the process of actually developing a capacitor.

Typical scam tactics: keep the mark hoping it's just around the corner.