GM, Public Transportation, and Karma

Good points. But just to be clear.... in Canada, if you need emergency surgery like a heart bypass or skin grafts there is no waiting. Waiting, if it happens, happens with elective surgery like knee replacements and the like. Some people go to the States for these but not a lot.

 

Actually the buses are on the streets in the city, which is slow but there are many routes so many pickup and set-down points then it goes on the busway at over twice the average vehicle speed on the parallel roads, then onto suburban streets, again to drop and pick up people near their homes and work places.

Adelaide's public transport service is a blend of government and private. The buses are owned by the government and leased to the companies which are contracted to provide a minimum level of service. Government control prices and collect all fares then pay the companies based on their performance and level of service.

It is more complex than that obviously but I'm not going to go into a lot of detail about that I know little of.

 

Ironic that a thread about GM's Karma evoles into a discussion of the US healthcare system (or lack of). If the US had universal single payer healthcare GM would have remained competitive and would still exist. Instead of "bailing out" Wall Street, we should be bailing out the American public by reforming the most inefficient healthcare system in the developed world.

I first read about GM's role in destroying our public transportation system back in the 1970's and decided not to reward a greedy corporation by buying their products. I am sure they failed because I have never bought a GM product! I don't buy Firestone tires for the same reason. We only vote for our Federal government every 4 years, but we really vote everytime we spend a dollar. Don't support corporations who's values you disagree with!

Three notes on healthcare:

1) Universal single payer healthcare will not work if its is "free". There will need to be a structured co-pay system so people will manage their healthcare costs. Elective procedures would have a much higher co-pay than necessary procedures. A once a year physical or checkup would have NO co-pay. Higher income people would have a higher co-pay. Co-pays would be lower on appointments and higher on ER visits.

2) A universal single payer system shoud be a safety net for basic "essential" healthcare. We can not afford cutting edge care for 300 million people. There will always be the opportunity to buy additional private insurance for what is not covered.

3) I am sure I have had 8 different insurance companies over the last 30 years. Not one of them send me any info on how to live health, not one of them offered me a discount at the local health club, not one of them offered me a annual physical to catch things early.

We do not have a healthcare system, we have a "sick" care system.

 

First of all the public transportation shenanigans you describe happened long before the 1970's. I also find it interesting that you hold that against GM and firestone but find it ok to buy a car from a company that's first vehicles were war materials designed to aid in the war effort against your very own country. HAve you ever owned a volkswagen or a mitsubishi? What year do you draw the line at and forgive or do you never forgive an american company because american companies are inherently bad and foreign companies are not? I am curious?

 

Malorn you are so funny
He said that he first read about the destruction of mass transit in the 70's not that it happened in the 70's.
As for voting with your dollars, I completely agree.
In his case rpatterman aparently feels that the companies he buys from have changed their ways from their earlier behavior. While GM has not changed from theirs.
I completely agree actually. GM has shown zero interest in growing as a company. Instead they have done their best to stop the rest of the world from changing.
They had an opportunity to be a leader of innovation in the late 90s, but tossed that away.
I think this is a quote from someone on this board, I appologize to the original poster but it hits the nail on the head.
I find it so ironic that the company that based its product on planned obsolesence, is now obsolete.

 

I am glad you are amused. You country is in economic tatters and you think it is funny? The US is being manipulated econmically everyday by the Chinese and Japanese and you choose to sit on your hands. The US is broke, literally and figuratively we just have not had the courage to admit it yet. It has been looted and the great middle class jobs have been exported. Was the US better off when Flint MI had the highest average income in the world or is it better off now when the jobs have been offshored and it can be described as an empty war-zone?

 

Is Flint Michigan an "empty war-zone" because I choose to boycott GM because I disagree with their corporate values (or lack of values) OR;

-because GM moved jobs to Canada so they would not have to pay healthcare costs, OR;

-because GM moved jobs to Mexico so they would noy have to pay healthcare costs, OR;

-because GM has failed at quality (my dad served in the Pacific in WWII and preferred the Japanese "Jeeps" that they captured to the US Jeeps, because they were more reliable), OR;

-because GM spent bailout money to move jobs to China???

Just askin!

BTW, I have owned several Fords! Also BTW, I also boycott WalMart both because of what they have done to American small towns and the "cheap plastic shit from China" angle. Unfortunetly my boycott of WalMart has not been successful (yet).

P.S. The answer to your question is obvious, America needs manufacturing jobs to have a middle class, too bad GM is not interested in the well being of the middle class.

 

Funny, our free healthcare system has worked pretty well for 60 years. People said at the outset that it would cause the healthcare system to be overloaded with every minor ailment, and to begin with this happened to an extent, but generally people are sensible about not abusing the facility. Much of the overload at the beginning was down to chronic conditions that the patients simply couldn't afford to have seen to previously.

It's not completely free any more - eyecare is effectively co-pay, as is dentistry, and there's a prescription charge of £7.20 - but GP visits, consultations and hospital treatment are. There are limitations on what drugs and surgeries are available, and yes, there are waiting lists for elective procedures. Pretty much anything with a decent, proven clinical record is available, though.

It is possible to get private healthcare insurance, but it largely covers a slightly nicer standard of hospital to stay in, and a slightly higher nurse-to-patient ratio. Actual treatment is normally performed by the same doctors you would get in the NHS hospital, using their permitted off-service hours, though you may be pre-empting the NHS waiting list. You may be able to ask for some treatments that aren't offered on the NHS, but the insurer can refuse. If something goes wrong that they don't cater to, they can offload you back onto the public health service.

Some employers do provide this insurance for their employees, but it is treated as a benefit for tax purposes and the value of the insurance reduces your personal tax allowance (the amount of earnings you are permitted free of income tax). I can tell that it costs about £400 or so for my extra coverage, as that's how much my allowance has been reduced by, and it's the only taxable benefit I get.

There's a balance between how much coverage the free service offers and how much tax people are willing to pay towards it. The NHS is projected to cost £119bn this year, 17.7% of government expenditure. I don't see a line item for 'bank bailouts' but it's got to be pretty close.

 

So the middle class is in tatters, and Japan and China are raping us economicaly and you choose to blame GM?

 

what does GM have to do with Chinese manufacturing and US job loses? GM builds vehicles sold in China in China(mandated by the Chinese) in a 50% partnership with a Chinese company(mandated by the Chinese). GM has never sold one Chinese manufactured car in the USA. The japanese and chinese industrial/monetary policies have gutted the middle class not GM. are you going to blame GM for the exprting of the textile, electronics, steel etc industries too?
The Japanese will never be supremely successful in China because too many chinese remember the massacres at nanking and other sordid war atrocities.

 

It's people like YOU who put us in this situation, not people like us. We warned you clowns what was going to happen with the supply siding, cheap oil, unbalanced budgets (TAX CUTS), privatization/deregulation is always the answer approach, but y'all knew better... Sure you did... Conservative business leaders have been moving operations overseas and hiring foreign workers as rapidly as they could, all while waving the Red, White and Blue and casting everyone else as "Lefties/Socialists/Communists". You gave us around ten trillion dollars worth of new debt with commitments to much more, and NOW you are worried??? Oh, and we weren't supposed to worrry about those massive trade deficits either...nor the budget deficits as long as the GOP was in charge.

The debt driven consumption/financial innovation model never made sense, but supply siders believed it like gospel. All those supply siding economists pushed it. And the trade deficits soared. We overconsumed relative to our own production, and the Chinese were the lenders among others. It was also predictable. You didn't just figuratively hand them the gun, you built them a gun factory and an ammunition plant too, while tattoing a target on your forehead.

Meantime for decades we've had a healthcare system running amock, inflating at about twice the general rate every year. We've finally hit the tipping point where it is such a large portion of GDP that it will WRECK the rest of the economy if we don't completely change the way it works and contain costs. And as a percentage it will probably be really bad this year since GDP is shrinking...although massive govt. deficit spending is propping up GDP at the moment.

 

The decline of the middle class can be blamed on many things other than Japan, China and GM, such as:

-Wall Street
-Lack of a manufacturing / industrial policy in the US for 30+ years.
-Lack of a tax policy to penalize "offshoring" (both jobs and taxable income).
-Lack of an Energy Policy since Carter.
-The American consumer (that's me and you)
-the "formerly big 3" for dropping the ball on energy efficent cars
-Cheney/bush
-lack of healthcare
-GM/Cheveron for shelving the best available EV technology
-etc etc

....it is really a very long list, but on second thought I do not "blame" Japan and China, since they are doing what countries should do, "looking out for their own". Maybe if US ecomomic policy was looking out for our middle class instead of international corporations, we would not be in this mess.

But more specific to your post: YES, I blame GM for Flint looking like a war zone. GM enjoyed the profits producted by the labor and infrastructure of Flint during the good years, but abandoned Flint when
things got tight.

I would love to buy an Michigan produced PHEV or BEV and I am sure the hardworking, skilled labor in Michigan would love to build me one, but GM decided there was no market so now there are no jobs.
I'll bet if the "former GM" had actually ever built the Volt, it would not have been built in Michigan with American made parts. Hopefully Government Motors can bring some life back to Flint.

It is ironic that the company that based its product on planned obsolesence, is now obsolete. twice stolen quote

 

The trade deficits soared because we let the US manufacturing base be stolen and I have never been in favor of that. It has nothing to do with cheap oil and tax cuts, it has been our trade policies(free trade while everyone else practices a form of mercantilism) and tax policies. How much better would our federal budget look (from a deficit perpsective) if the US was running a trade surplus and had been for the last twenty years. How much higher would the buying power be of the average american? How much more wealth would the US have accumulated? I think there is a good chance there would be no govt deficit taking into account the multiplier effect and the fact we would not be paying interest on the debt already accumulated.

 

No, what I think is so funny (which you have just reinforced again with that question) is that your reading comprehension is less than that of my 10 year old nephew.
I was amused at your mis-statement that rpatterson was stating the destruction of mass transit happened in the 70s. As he stated, he READ about it in the 70s. He never stated that it HAPPENED in the 70s.
So, did you misread that, or are you trying to mislead people?
Seems you did the same thing here. You twist my words and imply I am amused at the economic state of our nation where it is quite clear I was amused at your lack of reasoning and/or reading comprehension.

 

Wasn't part of that US manufacturing base exported by GM management to Mexico when they shut down auto parts plants in Flint (and other US cities)? Didn't GM management make that decision?

 

I have never made excuses for some of GM's dealings over the last half century, but this is about so much larger a picture. We have been in an economic war with Japan and China for years, its just Washington DC was too busy being wined, dines and 69ed by the enemy and I include Wall Street on the enemies list. They have found a way to profit in the short-term through "newer and better financial instruments" as the heart and soul is ripped out of the USA. Now the chickens are coming home to roost, a service/speculatory economy will NOT work.

 

Anybody who knows me knows I fought hard against NAFTA, but that was federal policy. Lets be real, most of the jobs formerly in Flint are not in Mexico they are in Japan and Korea.

 

If he read about it yesterday or in the 70's does it matter? It happened decades ago.

 

Do you suppose that GM management lobbied for or against NAFTA? Were they required to source parts from Mexico, or did they decide to source parts for business reasons?