GM, Public Transportation, and Karma

Manufacturing bas was not stolen,,, it was sold to the highest bidder,, with the willing participation of the feds,, from Reagan on! State and local govts have some complicity as well,,, the south luring manufacturing away from the Unionized north to the non-union, cheaper labour south. They too learned the lesson,, as manufactures were further lured away to places like Mexico and then on to the far east. This was all done with the eyes wide open with federal tax policy doing nothing to prevent it,, and indeed encouraging it.

The problem with right wingers, is that they have a very selective memory. They like to wave the red, white and blue,, and tout free enterprise,, but now that that has collapsed they like to piss and moan about how someone should do (or should have done) something. And they like to blame anyone but themselves.

I am reminded of the Western Washington floods of the past few winters. Residents and leaders of the two counties that were under water two winters in a row, were often seen on the news crying " the (fill in the blank) govment should do something!" This coming from counties that were offered help from the feds and the state to repair/improve the dikes that protect the major population centers and transport routes (I 5!), and because the didn't want to pony up the local share they said no thank you. These counties also have historically voted "No" on any tax increase measure for almost any purpose,, and voted "Yes" on any tax repeal measure. So don't complain to me that your schools suck, your roads, are potholed, your police and fire departments are poor etc. You have done this to yourselves. So when the rains come back next fall,, and they will,, I will suggest that you buy boots!

The reality is that the Repubicans have been in charge for the bulk of the last generation. Nixon/Ford,, a short interlude with Carter, 12 years of Reagan/Bush followed by Clinton who,, despite all the opinion of the right, was no liberal,, and even at that was hobbled by a republican congress for 3/4's of his administration,, followed by the imfamous 8 years of Cheney/Bush. So by my count, the republicans have 28 years,, the democrats 12,,,,if you figure in the impotence of Clinton,, both self induced and by congress,, I give it say 32-8.

You want to blame someone for ALL the mess we are in, and have been in the last 40 years,,,,right wingers,, look at yourselves!

Icarus


PS:
Please don't go forth on my unfortunate use of the term "impotence". I believe we can have an adult discussion on these subjects.

 

i am sure it was part of a business plan to compete, but also remember that GM is by far the largest seller of cars and trucks in Mexico, many which are imported from the US.

 

I agree and that is why I am an independent who votes on this issue more than any other issue. The Republicans have become drunk on the WallStreet/Free Trade Kool aid.

 

Agree, except the part about, "It has nothing to do with cheap oil..."
If we had not been addicted to cheap oil for the last 30+ years our cities would not be the sprawling mess they are now and Detroit would be the world leader in EV and PHEV technology and production. We would not have fought two Wars for Oil in the middle east and we would not be sending $600 billion per year to our enemies. Where would we be today if we had stuck with Carter's Energy Policy?

SO, YES, IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH CHEAP OIL!!!

 

so are you saying the US should have imposed a huge tax on oil to raise the price over the last 30 years?

 

But it was a short sighted business plan, because it exported those jobs to Mexico and now the people in Flint (and other cities) don't have jobs and therefore cannot buy GM cars. Does GM make more or less money on a vehicle sold in Mexico compared to one sold in the US?

 

We caused it. We spent money we didn't have, on s*** we didn't need, to impress folks who don't even like us

I was lucky enough to be raised by FISCALLY conservative folks. Although they didn't realize it at the time, they had strictly lived their life according to the rules of the book "The Millionaire Next Door"

http://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Thomas-Stanley/dp/0671015206

I've lived my life the same way, which means I started off very small, not having crushing debt from day one. So I look after myself, I'm not out to impress folks I don't even give a s*** about

Not only have individuals spent credit unwisely for a bit over 35 years, so has the government and many large corporations. When all you worry about it the next paycheck, the next quarterly report, that may be good enough

The folks who started this mess, who propelled this mess along, got more than their share out of it. They cashed out fat and happy, with nothing but contempt for the ignorant peons who blindly followed them

As far as Gm going Tango Uniform, seems I recall all this urgency last fall to start shoveling out ungodly amounts of scratch, so they would NOT go Tango Uniform. So, this money is now considered a gift?

Both the US and Canada have dug themselves a bottomless fiscal hole. Doesn't matter what label is running the White House or Parliament, they spend the same. Ironically, those that supported large cash giveaways, eg Michael Ignatieff up here, will make noise about deficits while they are Opposition.

So, nothing changes.

The next phase is inflation, possibly hyperinflation. I've purchased some more property, restocked my food storage, in anticipation. Not much else I can do

 

Sometime in the next 5-10 years the bottom will fall out. We will find out the service/speculation economy was fueled by fool's gold.

 

Well, put that way, YES

There is a reason why so little domestic drilling is done, and it has nothing to do with environmental regulations. It has to do with extraction cost

Eg there are oil fields in southwest Manitoba. Surprisingly, a lot of Manitobans are ignorant of their very existence. This is part of the same field that is in the Dakotas.

Asides from test wells, there is little activity there due to extraction costs. These are very deep systems, in geologically "tight" formations. When oil went over $100 the first time, there was a rash of development and some capped wells were put back into production

When oil went down, that area just as quickly dried up, as did the Tar Sands in Alberta. Realistically, oil must be >$65 a barrel to break even there

Another example is the Hibernia oil field, near the Grand Banks of Newfoundland. Nobody wanted to privately develop that field, due to the remarkably high extraction costs. So, in typical Canadian fashion, a Crown Corporation was set up, the Hibernia Management and Development Corp

Like any Crown Corp here in Canada, HMDC is legally exempt from audit and investigation. Its a taxpayer black hole. So now ExxonMobil is happily pumping oil out of the Hibernia field, as they are guaranteed cost recovery by HMDC, courtesy of the Canadian taxpayer

I would have passed a law a long time ago, forbidding foreign source energy. Everything must be developed with local resources. That means our energy prices would have been very high, due to extraction costs alone.

It's a popular conspiracy theory that a bunch of green nuts are preventing oil extraction up north, along the coasts, eg with hydrates on the ocean floor

Do you have any idea just how expensive it is to extract hydrates? How expensive GBS platforms are to develop/build for rough ocean conditions that have to also deal with icebergs?

I'm against taxpayers funding these zany misadventures. I don't see anybody rushing up to me, offering to help me along. Oh, hell no. So why help large companies that created their own mess, due to incompetent management?

On the issue of health care, since 1988 my parents have spent, total, around $289,000 at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN. They had the money, and although I'm unsure if it really helped them in the end, it did bring them peace of mnd. They could afford it

Over the past 10 years, I've spent around $68,000 at the Mayo Clinic. One issue may have become serious had I waited, the rest were more peace of mind, which to me was worth it.

Since the taxpayer didn't pay for it, I'm surprised I've never received a thank you letter from Manitoba Health. I saved them a lot of money going elsewhere, so did my folks

A lot of folks are unaware that private medicine is illegal in Canada. In the EU, you can go to private hospitals and clinics, if you're willing to pay for it

A common arguement here in Canada is that doctors would be siphoned out of the public system, to work in private practice. That already happens, they keep a tight lip on the doctor shortages, how hard it is to find a doctor willing to accept new patients, or how doctors start out here, then move to the US

 

Economic collapse/failure is a common thing in South American and African countries. No reason why it can't happen here as well

We've been a spoiled rotten bunch for too long. Look at most - not all - of the people under 25 years of age, a bunch of whiny, lazy, useless brats.

 

The answer is we DID put a huge tax on imported oil in the last 30 years. The problem was (and still is) that instead of a "tax" levied by our governments,,, it was levied by OPEC and the benefit went not to the US tax payers,, but rather to middle eastern sheiks,, African despots,, central american nut cases, Alberta "free trade" right wingers,,, and even to fund the "alaskan petro-cleptocracy!

If we had had well thought out energy and tax policy,, something that Jimmy Carter was ridiculed for, many of those trillions of dollars would have/could have/should have go to fund the kind of RE technology that we now need to combat both peak oil,, but global warming as well.

So the answer today is the same as it was in 1973,,, tax oil to the point that it hurts to waste it! Use some of the benefits to help those that have no other transportation options,, use the rest to do some "real" serious conservation and alternative energy research and development.

It is without argument the biggest impediment over the years to viable alternatives to oil,,, is cheap oil! Even as late as last year when gas prices pushed $4.50/gal US, people began to get it ,,, but then gas prices fell to ~$1.50 and guess what,,,back to square one! I work in the solar business and can see the demand rise and fall in direct relationship to the price of oil net/net.

It makes it very hard to invest in current PV/RE technology much less any new technology when the price structure is always undermined by cheap oil. Opec and the Saudi's know this,, and can in the short term keep prices low by glutting the market. They also realize that they can't do this forever,,, and so they are investing heavily in RE/PV so that when the oil revenue dries up,,, they will be able to profit from newer technologies,,, technologies that we have funded,,, and should of could of benefited from!

Icarus

 

The end of cheap oil that is happening now will end globalization and bring back manufacturing to North America. See
[ame="http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/product-description/0307357511/sr=1-1/qid=1244054533/ref=dp_proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=916520&s=books&qid=1244054533&sr=1-1"]Why Your World Is About to Get a Whole Lot Smaller[/ame]

Sorry about the messy links..

 

How's your water supply? Can you go off-grid long term? Got a stack of novels to read in your bunker?

 

Ditto. Although my family fell off the wagon some time after I joined the workforce.

I read that book some years ago, and it was great stuff. One of my favorite parts was the guy who bought controlling interest in some company for his wife for her birthday (or something to that effect.) When he told her she was clipping coupons and said something like "that's nice, dear."

The problem in the U.S. is like the poser described in the book at a marketing sponsored event, there are many spending like millionaires who aren't in reality...although they easily could be if they didn't spend so lavishly. They are overspending on an unsustainable lifestyle.

 

Exactly. Americans continue to kid themselves about how the oil markets work and the real cost of oil (and in particular "cheap" oil.) Our nation has demonstrated the collective forethought of a 4 year old.

 

Shawn,

Be careful of using ditto,, it'll make people think that you are a Rush fan!

Icarus

 

Yes!
and that money should have been invested in a world class public transport system in urban areas and into regional public education.

I wish I could have a business that gets the handouts GM gets and place the blame squarely on my customers for the failure of my business. Also accept the blame for failures due to cost cutting design instead of blaming the people on the production line who robotically assemble product. If a transmission fails it isn't normally the fault of the people who assembled it, it is the weakness of the design. I don't blame the person who put the rings on the piston when I'm driving behind a smoky Mitsubishi, I blame the engineer who designed the rings with inadequate ring tension and soft cylinder wall material. Do you blame the guy who put the headlight together when the reflector material fails or the engineer and bean counters who accepted cheaper material and processes? GM blames everyone but themselves.

It's time for US businesses to trade on quality and value rather than flag waving and guilt.

Public Health Care in Australia.
1.5% levy on gross taxable income paid by income earner with rebates for people on low incomes. Money is tacked onto taxation deductions.
1% additional levy if you earn over $50,000 PA and are not in a private health fund. I pay about $2500PA for private health cover which I Hardly ever use. It covers things like hospital stays and surgery but I have to pay the first $1000 of any costs in any financial year. (July 1 to June 30) The cost of cover goes up each year if you are not in a health fund when you wish to join if you are over 35 years old. That is you might have to pay 2% extra premiums if you choose not to join a health fund until you are 39 years old. This reflects a higher cost for health care of older people and in a backward way rewards long term members with lower premiums than older people who join as their health is deteriorating.
I still think US manufacturers were stupid to get involved in providing health cover to employees and more particularly, lifetime health cover. It was stupid and short sighted. Why didn't they just offer a pay increase which allowed an employee to pay for their own health care? Could it have been that it was seen as cheaper in the short term with no regard to the legacy costs on future production?

This is like the current stupid government policy here to use leased premises rather than buy property for office space. This only leads to a blowout in costs in the long term. Real estate is a great investment for everyone but tax payers? Yeah right. More like politicians have commercial property investments and friends with commercial property and government leasing property increases demand therefore prices of commercial rental property. Now private companies are getting the gains tax payers once got.
<end_rant>

 

It wasn't just GM. It was the car companies, big oil. the Teamsters and the politicians. Ike was on a big national highway kick when he was President in the 50s. The tradeoff was electric for gasoline. Trains for trucks. Electric trollies for gas buses. And cars, cars, cars. Conversion to an oil intensive transport system.

I lived on a main street when I was a kid in the 50s. I watched the conversion: first, electric trollies on tracks, on the old cobblestone street. Next, the street and tracks were paved over with asphalt. The trollies were replaced with electric buses with overhead cables. Finally, the cables were removed and the electric buses were replaced with gasoline-powered buses--built by GM et al. All within 10 years. Very fast.

In those days, we got most of our oil from the US, and it was cheap. The times have changed, and the direction needed is back to electric.

 

To those who would rail against government being in business, I would say get business out of government.