GM, Public Transportation, and Karma

Correct. This is what I observed in the late 1990's before it accelerated. Companies have literally been training the Chinese how to build the equipment in China for their manufacturing plants to be built there. (The Chinese don't want to allow any foreign produced equipment to be brought in, so you have to teach their design institutes how to make/spec the equipment first. ) Once the plant is up and running with Chinese workers, they want to see the foreign start up crews gone as soon as possible, and minimal/no foreign management for the "joint venture."

In the end the Chinese got the process technology, the equipment technology, the plant, and the jobs. The business conservatives reduced their production costs for a few years by giving away the farm. I've got to hand it to the Chinese govt., they are way smarter than any of our Western business folks. They lured these clowns into giving everything away in permanently one-sided deals, all with the bait of some short term profits. (The Chinese would not allow sales into their market from foreign plants, that was the stick.)

 

Good, no problems

I have a backup place that is already off grid, as in wood stove for heat, no indoor plumbing, etc. Am in process of design/build a "livable" off grid solution, that does *not* rely on sensitive technology to function

My reading selection ranges from titles like "Applied Linear Regression Models" to "Favorite Venison Recipies"

I like variety in my reading material. If worse comes to worse, that row of calculus books could always be used to start a fire in the stove

 

Yes, we have nobody to blame but ourselves. In previous threads I have called our corporate management culture "criminally incompetent." I stand by that claim

It's a cheap shot, and a way for hillbillies and simpletons to feel good about themselves, to blame the consumer for the problems we now face. These decisions were already made for us.

If a person is truly angry, and wants to blame somebody, blame the criminally incompetent corporate management, the Mafia-like union bosses, and political parties from both sides of the aisle

 

Flint has nothing to do with the dismantling of public transportation. Flint's auto workforce peaked in the late 1970's at close to 100,000 workers. Since then they have been in steady decline mostly due to a very hostile workforce that refused to work with management on anything. Now ~ 7000 remain. I lived in downtown Flint in 1998 when the UAW when on strike and shut down all of GM over dispute over making part X instead of part Y. I personally believe the UAW has no one to blame but themselves for job loses among their membership.

GM's and others actions to buy up and close down trolley and streetcar systems and replace them with GM busses was not criminal. GM is not responsible to the public to provide them with the most ecologically sound transportation. GM is responsible to their shareholders.

Government is responsible to the people. It is city government that allowed their public transportation to be bought up and replaced that are to blame. Without government involvement trolleys and streetcars would not have been replaced.

You are also forgetting about the public's role. In the 1950's people were actively moving to the suburbs and buying cars. The car was the preferred form of transportation and status symbol. I doubt these new car owners like streetcars and trolleys getting in their way and taking up room with dedicated right-of-ways. I would bet the majority of the public saw the replacement of streetcars with buses as progress. It is only now more than 50 years later that with the advantage of hindsight we see all of the problems caused by the move away from public transportation to private automobiles.

So at the time you had 3 groups that were involved:

• Companies like GM were interested in increasing the sales of their products.
• City governments saw buses as an inexpensive and flexible way to connect to new suburbs
• Car drivers wanted trolleys out of their way

No criminal conspiracy, just different times and priorities.

 

Don't forget to blame Wall Street, while you're at it.

 

Don't forget cat food, and maybe a few sheep.

Tom

 

The problem with the idea of "moving to the hills,, off grid etc" is that if the bottom were to REALLY fall out, it is not like one is likely to stave off the hoards by being in the hills. It is a misguided fantasy to think that most people could live that way,, if only they had the stock of bottled water/dried food etc. If I am the only one with food and every one is starving,,, how long am I going to be able to feed just my self.

I see in on the Solar forum,, when "survivalists" show up, thinking that all they need to do to stave off armageddon is a few solar panels. A way more useful endeavor is to use to solar panels to stave off the armageddon.

Icarus

 

Because of the cummulative actions of Detroit, cities, counties and states, we are 100 years behind Europe in transportation. We have substituted oil for knowledge for too long and must now apply the knowledge.

Fuel should be $10 per gallon ($2.50 per Liter) to encourage efficiency, compact communities and conservation. We must invest in walking & bicycle routes, electric light & high speed rail. The "extra" on fuel will go to transportation & health care. We must rely upon sustainable-renewable energy, including PV panels on every roof of every school, church, business and sports venue, including along the sides of freeways, as in Germany. No excuses this time.

 

What are you some kind of tree hugging, green, wealth sharing, peace loving, social justice loving, socialistic, Obama voting, democratic, liberal, free thinking, intelecshul?

What's next on your agenda? Free public schools that educate?

Icarus

 

:drum:

 

You linked the two not me:

You claim that GM's actions in buying and dismantling trolley and streetcar lines was criminal. Since GM was not found guilty of anything criminal in those transactions, history is not on your side. What GM did was completely legal.

You also claim that GM could have invested in Flint instead of buying up the streetcars. GM invested massively in Flint until the 80's. By that time streetcars had been extinct for decades. The two simply are not connected.

You do claim that GM dismantled streetcar and trolley system and destroyed public transportation. That is the topic of the documentary that you started the thread with. Do you claim the documentary is wrong?

 

Not to pick nits,,

"You claim that GM's actions in buying and dismantling trolley and streetcar lines was criminal. Since GM was not found guilty of anything criminal in those transactions, history is not on your side. What GM did was completely legal."

Just because an individual or a corporation is found not guilty of a criminal offense,, doesn't by implication mean that the actions "were completely legal".

Just thought I would point that out.

GM along with many multinationals have "been guilty" of "criminal" behavior" in the past and will be so in the future,,, in a metaphoric sense at least.

See also the Bush administration!

Icarus

 

Or ethical, for that matter.

 

Yep, and by Hinton's reading of histroy Kenny Boy Lay did not do anything criminal. "What?" That's right, since he died before his appeals could be settled, his conviction was automatically abated.

I'm not sure if they ever convicted any of the ENRON traders that manipulated the energy market either. The FERC has them on tape doing it, but wouldn't release the tapes (they leaked out.)

Only a very small percentage of crimes are even brought to trial.

p.s. O.J. is still looking for the real killer(s) and Rodney King was not beaten.

 

There is a big difference between criminal behavior and unethical behavior. In the case of GM there were hearings and other legal proceedings. However, GM was not found guilty of anything so their acts were not criminal.

I would have no issue with Hill claiming GM's actions were unethical or not in the public's best interest. They were not criminal though.

Personally I think GM's actions as well as the actions of the governments and public of the era were short sited and have hurt the nation as a whole. But again, it wasn't just GM and hindsight always 20-20. I can just as easily point my finger at my parents for buying a house in the suburbs and a car to drive back into the city.

 

You're getting closer:

"There is a big difference between criminal behavior and unethical behavior. In the case of GM there were hearings and other legal proceedings. However, GM was not found guilty of anything so their acts were not criminal."

You are absolutely correct,, there is a difference between unethical and criminal behavior,,, but because someone was found "not guilty" doesn't mean that the underlying act was not "criminal" in the strictest sense.

A semantic difference I agree,, but the world is full of lawyers,,,,

Icarus

 

Here 60 years after streetcars were replaced by busses you are complaining about it. GET OVER IT. You want to punish the current management and workers of GM over something that happened 6 decades ago.

Flint is a completely separate issue from streetcars. I grew up in Saginaw, MI which was as much a GM town as Flint. I have also lived in Flint. The UAW is just as much to blame if not more for the death of the car industry in those areas.

I grew up surrounded by UAW members. They simply were not happy making 3 times the prevailing wage in the area. They truly believed they deserved more and that no one could do what they did. These workers put their faith in a combative union that worked against all efforts by GM to update and modernize their factories because it would mean fewer unskilled UAW workers. They got what they had coming. It sucks for all of the other people involved but I don't feel an ounce of pity for the old-school UAW that fights for the sake of fighting.

 

They were just plain criminal.