1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

AC, Calculate your Actual SEER

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by Celtic Blue, Jun 19, 2009.

  1. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    2,224
    139
    0
    Location:
    Midwest
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Okay, it took me far too long to put this thought together, but yesterday I realized that I could actually make a pretty good calculation of my AC's actual SEER. Now that hot weather has settled in I've actually run the AC a few times and I've been doing a checkout. It's a 1994 unit and has problems that I will likely address this summer. Nameplate on the compressor is SEER 12 for a 4 ton unit (48,000 Btu/hr.) But I've suspected the actual SEER was around 8 based on power consumption vs. estimated cooling load requirements for the home. Turns out I was optimistic and it is running about 6.6. :eek: Welcome back to the 1970's. :hippie: It might actually be worse, because I'm assuming it is putting out 4 tons of cooling, despite known problems with the A-coil that will restrict it.

    All you need are two pieces of information to do the calc, but one is a two parter:

    1. The rated capacity of your unit, this is the easy part. Typically this is expressed in tons where 1 ton = 12,000 Btu/hr.

    2. The power consumption of your unit while the compressor/blower are running. This is the hard part and required two steps.
    a. What I did was to read the electric meter for a short time period while the AC was running. The disk on mine turns 100 times per kwh so I timed 10 turns. (I had done this for the AC last year for a longer time period and the numbers agreed within a few percent so I know that this was a normal cycle.) EDIT: EEK! No it doesn't turns out that 100 revs = 0.72 kwh.
    b. Then I read the baseline for the house once the unit kicked off (had to wait 90 seconds for the blower to shut down too--yours might differ in its time delay.) This power I subtracted from the combined, leaving me the AC/blower consumption. My baseline usage at the time was only 5% of the total with the AC running.

    SEER = Btu (cooling)/watt-hour (electricity)

    In my case:
    SEER = 4*12,000 / 7260 watt-hour = 6.6
    EDIT: Based on the correct calibration the result is:
    SEER =4*12,000 / 5230 watt-hour = 9.2

    So this has me curious...what sort of "real world" SEER's are you folks seeing by the above criteria? This won't work for some of the more exotic two stage or variable speed compressors because they will rarely be running at full fixed load (making value #1 very wrong.) But for those of us running single fixed speed compressors this should give a good approximation.
     
  2. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,286
    10,140
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Without a performance chart, do you know this is the actual cooling output under your test conditions?

    I ask because the high efficiency mini-split heating unit I had installed over the winter has a quite variable output. Rated as a 15kBtu/hr unit for SEER purposes, it has a max listed cooling out 17k, but the chart actually shows capacities of 10.0 to 18.7k, depending on indoor and outdoor conditions. Heating capacities vary even more, 12.6k to 27.2k, but rated at 18k for HSPF purposes.
     
  3. bedrock8x

    bedrock8x Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2008
    1,483
    137
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    My 12 SEER 4 ton Trane only draws 20A @ 208V or 4160VA, compressor only. I don't know what is the PF and I am using a AC current meter.
    By calculation, 48000/4160 = 11.54. It is very close. It is a 1998 model.

    The power used by the blower is not part of the compressor performance.
    I suggest you should use a AC current meter to check the power consumption.
     
  4. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    2,224
    139
    0
    Location:
    Midwest
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    At present, no. But it really doesn't matter for a fixed unit since this is nearly a "best case" treatment for real world cooling capacity. If you look at the govt. SEER test conditions they are for only 82 F ambient anyway (not the ~90 F of my test), and the blower size is not specified. I could go to the trouble of sticking my new anemometer in the ducts to read velocity and temps while measuring condensate output to do a balance, and outside temps too, but it wouldn't matter that much. I expect some departure from the rated cooling load, typically lower...but not quite so much from the power draw.

    Depends on what you mean by variable. If it is one of the types that actually runs at varying speeds (not the air handler, but the compression) then one would need to be far more precise. But in evaluating a fixed type system this should be good enough.

    Yes, even though the compressor/blower system might be fixed, the actual capacity will vary greatly depending on specific conditions. And the electrical load should vary for some/many of these as well. If you have a 95 F day (vs. the 82 base) then the condensing pressure will be greater and the compressor will work harder.

    And if you have a bastardized system like mine with a large blower and narrow nominal 4-ton A-coil you can expect some efficiency hit there since there is no way the design amount of air is making it through the mismatched A-coil frame. This will show up in several ways including extra heat load added by the inefficient blower, extra power consumption that likely exceeded the blower size of the govt. SEER test, plus reduced transfer efficiency on the coil.

    Plus mine lacks the TXV at present (mentioned as an option in the compressor installation book.) I'm about 99.9% certain that the compressor was SEER rated with a TXV and a smaller blower...because that is how I would have done it to maximize test numbers. Unfortunately, builders and subcontractors go with cheap mismatches as the norm. They also undersize the ducts most of the time.

    That's my take on it anyway.
     
  5. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    2,224
    139
    0
    Location:
    Midwest
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    I don't believe that is correct. http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/residential/pdfs/cac_tp_101105.pdf The Fed. Register is a bear to read but it goes into great detail about the various air handlers and how to apply them. So it doesn't make any sense to ignore their energy input. One could also remove the external fan (1/8th hp on mine) if you were correct. It would be so easy to game this that I don't see how it would be allowed. It would completely eliminate the benefits of variable speed air handlers.

    Maybe I'm missing it though. Have you got a source for explaining that it is just the compressor that is rated? It looks like they rate a system with a compressor, and sell the compressor with the SEER rating...but not necessarily all the components.

    Don't see that I need to as I can read the compressor/fan draw more accurately from the utility meter than reading current, dealing with uncertainties in supplied voltage and power factor. I have multiple blower power measurements under my belt so it is easy to subtract that out. If I'm introducing an error it is well less than 5%.
     
  6. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    640
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Minor nitpicking, it's Evaporator Coil or e-coil

    If you want a technical read, this boy knows what he is talking about. I've applied many of his tips with great results

    Darrell's AC Trouble Shooting Superheat Subcooling Suction Saturation Temperature (SST) Suction Line Temperature, SLT

    This is more about SEER

    "Air Conditioning System Sizing for Optimal Efficiency"

    A TXV (Thermal Expansion Valve) ensures the system runs close to its rated capacity and efficiency rating.

    The mess of your ductwork alone may be responsible for the large difference in actual vs claimed SEER. Until you get the ductwork fixed, its no sense to replace other parts

    FYI my Bryant Evolution 2 ton system has a two speed compressor. On Low, it draws 6.7 amps, on High, 11.1 amps
     
  7. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    1,066
    756
    0
    Location:
    Virginia
    Vehicle:
    2021 Prius Prime
    Model:
    LE
    Can anyone here say for sure whether an old-style spin-the-disk meter measures volt-amps or measures actual watts. I've see conflicting reports on the internet. If it measures volt-amps (apparent power) not watts (true power), this test procedure might overstate actual power draw from a device with power factor less than 1. Modern AC/fridge/freezer compressors have power factor correction built in, but older ones might not.

    Edit: I withdraw the question. The sources I trust say that spin-the-disk meters measure actual wattage (true power). In addition, modern electronic meters also measure power factor, presumably so utilities can charge higher rates per watt for places with low net power factor (higher peak amperage required per watt of real power delivered).

    But I have to say I'm still having a heck of a time grasping this. If the unit was designed for 12 SEER, and it's now measured at 6, and you're assuming the output is the same as it was, doesn't this mean that, when it's on, it's drawing twice the current it was designed to draw? I didn't think appliances could do that for long and continue to function.
     
  8. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    2,224
    139
    0
    Location:
    Midwest
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Impossible to do for any reasonable amount of money/effort. That is of course the problem with most homes. You can't rip out the typical undersized ducting and start over because it is buried within the structure. Besides, my choke point is the narrow evaporator coil with blinded off space on either side. The coil has to go, the question I'm facing is whether or not the compressor is going to survive.

    What the test reveals in my case is that the compressor is pulling about 80% more than it should be to operate. Once the worst of the current heat passes I'll have the AC guy take a closer look at it. He is stretched thin right now (as I expected.)

    At this point I suspect that with the existing ductwork trunks I could put in a smaller AC unit, nearly double the efficiency, and still get about the same effective cooling load. Since the main ductwork is limited by existing geometry, it seems best to work backward from there rather than try to shoehorn in too large of a system.

    p.s. A-coil is one of those terms I've picked up from the AC folks. It is shaped like an A, so I'm not surprised by the description.
     
  9. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    2,224
    139
    0
    Location:
    Midwest
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    It is my understanding that this type of meter measures real power (watts) not apparent power. You could have a large reactive load but the meter wouldn't show it. Now if you have a large enough reactive component and the utility finds out they could charge you for it. They do this with large commercial customers at times. (I remember that as being something the EE professor would go on and on about in that circuits class so long ago. Seemed to be obsessed with it.)

    Might be fun to test some time. I've got enough CFL's that I've measured PF's on that I could do a before and after to see if it is reading VAR or real power. The CFL's are typically in the .6 to .65 PF range IIRC.
     
  10. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2006
    139
    15
    0
    Your little disc turns 100 times per KWHr- most of them use 7.2 watt hrs per turn or 139 turns per 1000 watt hrs= 1 KWHR.

    It sure is odd that your unit uses so much more than its rating.
    Make sure your disc turns 100 times per KWHr-and not 138 times.
    Usually the consumption per turn is right there on the meter-most say 7.2
    Luck
    Charlie
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    2,224
    139
    0
    Location:
    Midwest
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Ah! Thanks for that, I stand corrected. This is great because it fixes some apparent accounting errors that had been bothering the heck out of me. My vampire draws add up nearly perfectly to the base load now! And this cuts my blower down to ~3/4 hp.
    In my defense, the "7.2 kh" is on the meter off in a corner, not the disk, but says nothing about what it corresponds too. Of the many different instruments I've had to determine calibrations before I've not come across anything quite so eccentrically calibrated or labeled. Roughly 100 turns looked right for 1 kwh, but I had not done a 100 turn check vs. the dials to verify. That's what I get for not doing a rigorous check, I know better than that.
    This raises the SEER up to 9.2, which is bad in the vintage 1994 mediocre way, but not in the "imminent failure" way. Whew, that simplifies things! (My neighbor's much newer AC started making a hideous knocking sound at the start of the season...so I'm a bit antsy about this old unit.)
     
  12. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2006
    139
    15
    0
    Shawn, glad I could help.The only reason I "knew" that was I was curious-2 weeks ago- about my electric bill.It showed last month's average use was 55 KWHr/d-and that was May.It is much much hotter this month(river ridge Louisiana-suburb of NOLA).
    I checked my little disc and it was spinning, but I couldn't find anything on the meter that told me what a spin was worth.I looked it up online, and it said for most meters one spin was worth 7.2 watt hrs. Well rechecking the meter face, yes 7.2 in on it, but it actually has Kh 7.2 written in small print to the lower right.Now what in the heck Kh has to do with Watt hrs-looks like Kilowatt hours, but who knows.I would never have figured-from just looking at the meter face-that the 7.2 meant watt hrs-not when it more or less clearly 'said" kilo watt hours.
    Luck Charlie
    PS I used 74 kilo watt hrs yesterday for a small 1700 sq ft hours with a 3.5 ton 7 SEER UNIT!!
     
  13. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    640
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Another approach is to mount one of these on the highest point of that tall ceiling/atrium thing of yours

    Mitsubishi Electric - Product Information for MSZ-FD12NA

    From what you've described of your ductwork situation, it would be far cheaper to put in one of those Mitsubishi high efficiency Mr Slim units, than to start tearing out gyproc and reengineering ductwork

    I realize the A/C technical link I posted earlier is a bit complex, but your situation is to be expected if the outdoor condenser, indoor evaporator, cfm of the system, and ductwork are not properly balanced

    I've never heard A/C folks refer to the e-coil as an a-coil. Must be a regional thing
     
  14. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    640
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Haven't you noticed that engineers always appear obsessed about something? Like my fascination with robot women??

    Manitoba Hydro is pushing for almost all new residential construction to put in electronic meters with LCD displays. These meters correct for PF to ding you for real power
     
  15. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    640
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Typically, the old dial/spinning disk meters were calibrated like this:

    kw = (rev mark x 7.2kh x 3.6) divided by seconds

    The kh designator is defined as the watt hours per revolution. Or, put another way, the disk constant. The kh value of 7.2 is very common for residential disk/dial meters

    That is positively scary. I have my Bryant Evolution system programmed for priority dehumidification, setpoint around 75 F indoor, which keeps the indoor humidity between 40-45%. It's a 2.4 ton system

    For a 24 hour run period the system will usually add 17-26 kwh. I used an AEMC power quality analyzer on the system, the PF=0.98. The furnace has an odd ripple at the 5th harmonic, not sure why. Possibly something to do with the ECM variable speed blower motor
     
  16. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2006
    139
    15
    0
    Jayman,
    75 KWHrs per day- or about 2200/month-isn't exceptional for New Orleans this time of year. In the winter we might use 20 KWHrs/day and most of that is from the electric clothes dryer(big mistake,I should have gotten a gas one).
    It is a little hotter than usual-95F degrees-35 C- is the high with a low of 78 or so(at maybe 5 am). New Orleans is hot and humid, no question, but the lack of rain-none in 2 weeks- is a large factor in the AC use.We usually have rain 4 out of every five days in the summer, but no rain in the last 2 weeks.No clouds, no rain means my roof gets direct sun all day long-AND no rain cools my roof, so it is 140 degrees or so all day long.The thermostat is set at 78 degrees, and the AC runs continually from 9am- to 10pm(when I bump it up to 82 degrees and turn on the little window unit-5000 BTUs 515 watts- in the bedroom.It uses 52 KWHrs by itself.

    You're in Canada-guess you don't have much call for AC! We are 30 degrees N-pretty close to the equator-so it is HOT here in the summer.On the bright side we only hit 32 degrees once or twice a year in what passes for a winter here.
    Thanks
    Charlie
     
  17. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    2,224
    139
    0
    Location:
    Midwest
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Do you mean they are going to charge for apparent power rather than real power? If they just read VA then they will have apparent power. If they apply PF then they will be charging for real power.

    I'm wondering what they would actually charge a residential consumer for reactive power? It would seem that their own gear would recover it since it isn't really consumed. There would be some resistive loss in their lines for the additional current, and some cost for correcting for the reflected power with capacitors. But it is not being consumed within the residence--converted to work/heat.

    The following is a good discussion of reactive power for non-EE types (that would be me) PFC decoded

    Hey, I would love to be able to step in and recover reactive power that someone else was being billed for... It's like charging someone a fee for making change.
     
  18. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    2,224
    139
    0
    Location:
    Midwest
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    What?? I thought it was robot sheep you were working on...

    p.s. We really need a sheep smiley...
     
  19. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    640
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Actually, our summers are brief, but very humid. For example, today was 86 F with humidity reported at 68%. For a climate that can dip to -40 in winter, the fact I also have central A/C may seem strange

    A lot of folks here really overcool their homes in summer, sometimes I feel I have to wear a sweater just to visit. They try to keep the indoor humidity down by running the A/C, but the only way to do so is to run it a lot, hence overcooling

    My Bryant Evolution system has a variable speed ECM furnace fan, a two speed outdoor condenser, and a TXV on the coil. I can program it for priority dehumidification, and keep the setpoint around 76-78 F with indoor humidity under 45%

    If I lived in a hot humid climate, I'd also have a variable speed system. The variable speed systems are much better at moisture removal, while using much less energy
     
  20. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    640
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Yeah that was rushed and poorly explained on my part. MH wants to make sure that all those residential loads with low PF are properly accounted for

    Power Factor Correction

    A lot of utility co's are looking at residential loads with poor PF correction, and a means to charge for that

    Actually it can be a big cost to the utility, for if the PF isn't corrected, some very troublesome, even dangerous, anomalies can occur

    In your dreams son, in your dreams ....