Give americans what they want, never mind what makes sense

no clean air to be gotten from over regulating light duty diesel that haven't been sold here since86

The point is the 50-75 % of loophole vehicles depending on where you are in the country of what is on the road today are far dirtier than the light duty diesels of 96-03 or 04-07 EPA spec era .

If we reduced current light duty diesel emissions specs to 03 or 04 EPA levels , equal to current EU specs for a while we wouldn't get dirtier air . And this would allow a vast number of very fuel efficient models to be sold here overnight . And if these vehicles were to replace the loophole vehicles I speak of we would get much cleaner air and reduce our dependence on foreign oil over night . That is the point .

 

Okay, how about houseboat rules: For each diesel TDI or its equivalent, you must remove the equivalent number of vehicles from the road. If the TDI is twice as dirty as the light truck you are replacing, then you must remove 2 light trucks for each TDI.

The only problem with this plan is that you make no progress on lowering emissions. Most of us would like to see FE go up and emissions go down. That is why we favor hybrids and EVs. You can have 8 Prius driving around making the same emissions as a TDI. You could have hundreds of EVs making less emissions than the hybrid or the TDI.

 

Who would sell a toy truck class vehicle to buy a blue motion VW Polo? Wouldn't that be a tiny portion of vehicle buyers so little if any nett gain.

 

I don't either. I still don't even know what his made up term "loop-hole vehicle" means. He says they are vehicles that are excluded from CAFE. However, all light duty vehicles with the the exception of light-duty trucks over 8500 lb GVWR are included in CAFE calculations. If vehicles over 8500 GWVR are the "loophole vehicles" he is talking about, they only made up 8% of total miles driven by light-duty trucks in 1999 per the study by the Oak Ridge National Laboratory I linked. That is nothing close to his claim that "loop-hole vehicles" make up 60% of vehicles on the road.

Jayman and I have quoted emissions data from sources. If Dreamer wanted to he could use emissions data from those sources to show us how these mythical "loophole vehicles" put out 70 x the pollution of a light duty diesel. The CARB and EPA websites we quoted have emissions data for every light duty and medium duty vehicle on the road for the last 20 years.

I'm tired of talking in circles and replying to Dreamer's unsupported rants. If he starts quoting sources we can have a rational discussion. Until then I'm done.

 

Maybe this is a loophole vehicle?


You can see it pumps out a lot of pollution and is only used for commuting over a very short commute!!

 

Re: no clean air to be gotten from over regulating light duty diesel that haven't been sold here sin

Show me, with verifiable sources, where this is the case.

 

Tell me about it. I should have gotten off the bus a LONG way back ....

 

The novelty has worn off for me as well

 

As an added exciting benefit, it has the good possibility of catching fire or even exploding

 

numbers you ask for , numbers I give

There were 8,269,351 trucks and SUVs sold ( Loophole vehicles ) , making for a total of 16,153,952 new vehicles sold in 2007.
In 2007 & 2008 Model Years VW sold not one , "0" units of , none 2007 or 2008 Model Years light duty diesels in the US . ~50 % of what was sold were loophole vehicles

So of the 16,135,952 units of 2007 MY vehicles sold 0 were light duty diesels from VW that main seller of light duty diesels over the last 24 years .

8,434,769 trucks and SUVs sold ( loophole vehicles ) , making for a total of 16,961,650 new vehicles sold in 2006 . Again ~50 % of US vehicle sales were loophole class .

In 2006 MY VW & MB sold 35,000 - 40,000 US spec light duty diesels . MB was the only seller of light duty diesels in the US in this MY counting in the few 1,000s included in that rather generous 35-40 k unit number .

So out of ~17,000,000 units of new vehicle sales for 2006 MY 0.2 % were light duty diesels . Again out Of that ~17,000,000 only 35-40k were light duty diesels . Less than 1 % ( ~0.2 %) of total US vehicle sales were light duty diesels .

The % of loophole vehicles of total sales gets higher the closer you get to the late 90s sales numbers .

Over the last 24 years there have 6 years when light duty diesel sales in the US were "0" % , that is not one unit was sold here over that 6 year period by anyone . MB has had 8+ years during this time when they sold no units here in the US .

So in the years when VW light duty diesels sales peaked we were still well below that 1 % of total US vehicle sales . VW the main light duty diesel seller here along with MB the only other seller after 1986 . MB the only ever selling in few 1,000s of unit sales per year that they were sold here during this time .

With both sellers figured in the total US sales numbers of light duty diesels in peak years it was still below 1 % ( in the 0.7 % range ) of total US vehicle sales during peak years .

This one is the biggie , So over the last 24 years light duty diesel sales have made up an average of 0.2 % or less of total vehicle sales in the US .


So Again , Out of less than 0.2 % of total vehicle sales over the last 24 years where is the clean air to be had from the over regulation of light duty diesel emissions ????????????

 

Loophole vehicles is not a made up term . In it's original use it stands for vehicles that are exempt from figuring into passenger CAFE figures, GGT & having to meet passenger vehicle emissions .

And Even though some of these now have their own CAFE todays measurement is a joke compared to real world consumption . It is such today to give these vehicles an exemption from passenger vehicle GGT rules . So yeah right some of them have their own CAFE today to avoid the GGT but it such a joke on it's accuracy on these not to even count as a real world measurement . And the inaccurate CAFE numbers these vehicles do have today are exempt the 27.5 CAFE all other passenger vehicles must achieve . Again to get around the GGT that should apply to them .

When the loophole was created all passenger vehicles which almost all of the loophole crap on the road today is had to be figured in under passenger CAFE standards before the loophole was created .

Also these heavier vehicles ( that have a loophole from passenger vehicle emissions , GGT & CAFE standards ) they have their own emissions rules outside of passenger vehicle rules , "a loophole in passenger rules" .


Before the loophole for heavy industrial vehicles all vehicles were figured in to a companies CAFE calculation making them all subject to the Gas Guzzler Tax if they didn't meet that MY CAFE standards . Before the loophole we had a real pic of their impact to oil consumption and to our oil security of all that were sold by a given company .But after the loophole that was created evolved into the system we have today we lost that .

Today's loophole that exempts these vehicles from the current passenger vehicle 27.5 CAFE figure thereby exempt from the GGT that should apply to all . CAFE that all were once figured into to get a companies CAFE gives a distorted picture of our passenger vehicle fleet consumption . With this loophole there is no way to give the real picture of their impact on oil waste today , not anything close to accurate that is . Today when this "loophole exemption" is removed and real world consumption figures are assigned to loophole class vehicles the real CAFE for what is on the road today figures to be around ~15 mpgUS . That is a disgrace and is costing us lives in our military in the middle east daily .

LOOPHOLE VEHICLE - any passenger & industrial use vehicle today or sold since 1983 that is exempt from passenger vehicle CAFE , GGT & the 27.5 mpgUS CAFE in effect today . And is exempt from passenger vehicle's more stringent emissions rules .

Seems pretty clear to me ..............

 

Thank you for clarifying what you mean with your made-up term. The EPA, CARB, NHTSA, and DOT all call those vehicles Light-Duty Trucks or LDT's. However there are some flaws in your description:

The first year CAFE standards were set was 1978 and these rules only applied to passenger cars. In 1979, CAFE standards were set for light trucks (trucks with a GVWR <6000 lbs). In 1980 light trucks were defined as having a GVWR <8500 lbs. In 2007 this was raised to a GVWR < 10,000lbs

• [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy]Corporate Average Fuel Economy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Light Trucks are not exempt from the same emission requirements as passenger cars as of Model Year 2004. For Tier 1 regulations light-duty trucks and diesel vehicles were allowed to emit more pollution that gasoline passenger cars. With the adoption of Tier 2 emission regulations in 2004 all vehicles with a GVWR <8500 are required to meet the same emission requirements regardless of fuel type. However, there was a phase-in period. In 2004 only 25% of light duty vehicle needed to meet Tier 2 standards. This changed to 50% in 2005, 75% in 2006, and 100% in 2007.

• Emission Standards: USA: Cars and Light-Duty Trucks - Tier 1
• Emission Standards: USA: Cars and Light-Duty Trucks - Tier 2

Now that you have clarified "loophole vehicle" and defined it as any light-duty truck, please clarify this statement:

What light-duty truck spews out 40X the pollution of my 2003 Jetta TDI? Even looking back to Tier 1 vehicles I can't find one:

---------------- 2003 VW ----- 2003 Ford ---- 1995 Ford
------------------ Jetta --------- E350----------- E350
---------------- 1.9L TDI ------ 6.8L V10 ------- 5.8L V8
HC -------------- 0.31 ---------- 0.121 --------- 0.22
CO -------------- 0.20 ---------- 1.200 --------- 2.2
NOx ------------ 0.70 ---------- 0.200 --------- 0.21
PM ------------- 0.05 ----------- N/A ----------- N/A
Total ----------- 1.26 ----------- 1.521 --------- 2.63

• http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2003/volkswagen_pc_a0070228_1d9_1_diesel.pdf
• http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2003/ford_mdv_a0101133_6d8_l1.pdf
• http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/1995/ford_mdv_a0100613_5d8_1.pdf

Do you have any actual data to support your claim that any light-duty truck puts out 40X the air pollution that a 2003 TDI does? If so please present it. I'll even make it easier. The following CARB link has actual emission certifications back to 1995. The EPA link has actual emission certifications back to 1979 when CAFE was first formed. Surely you can find some actual data to support your claims on these sites.

Annual Certification Test Results & Data | Cars and Light Trucks | US EPA
Subject Top Page: On-Road New Vehicle & Engine Certification Program

 

So, before I remove the Ignore, has Dreamer posted verifiable data this time??

 

Thank you for answering my question. Looks like Dreamer stays on Ignore

 

Lots of data, no sources.

 

Ignore stays on, then

 

No, but he did at least define what he means by a "loophole vehicle". A loophole vehicle = Light Duty Truck. He still refuses to admit that the term loophole vehicle is a made-up term though and I doubt he will start using the officially recognized term.

 

Before I completely lose interest in this thread and unsubscribe to it, the EPA has clear testing procedures going back +20 years, for LDV's (The so-called "loophole" vehicle)

I have yet to uncover where a LDV will put out 40-70X the emissions a newer TDI will

That said, I feel that both the Prius and the VW TDI are complimentary technologies to ease consumption of oil, especially terrorist oil. We really are nitpicking, especially when either vehicle is compared to a large SUV or pickup with <20 mpg highway

VW has offered various models with diesel engines over the years. Marketing has resulted in folks chosing minivans, pickups, and SUV's instead, and vehicles like the Prius and various VW tdi's will remain niche markets as long as fuel prices remain where they are

If/when fuel shoots up to +$6 a gallon (Either through pricing or, like in the EU, taxation) then we will see the numbers change.

In the end, it's up to individuals to choose what vehicle they want to drive. Nobody points a gun to your head and makes you buy a pickup, or a Prius for that matter.

 

The officially recognized term ??? are you bleeping kidding ??????? .

The current setup "name wise" is a white washing compromise by the republican congress to make the continuation of the loophole exemption not seem as offensive as it actually was . And I've already conceded that the when the Dem's finally got control back an effort to finally level the playing field was passed . But that does not one thing to wipe out the impact of all the crap that was built & sold before 2007 MY . Loophole sales peaked in the early 00s before the price spike in oil was experienced so that is where the dirty air is to be found in US transport today .

And again all your facts & figures on pollution levels are worthless as they don't include PMs or the pollution these things put out while they are exempt from your fancy figures during this time . Tons of ultra fine PMs that are not regulated in amount in their very small size but are still none the less there .

And it shouldn't be discounted for a second that all your pollution data was collected by groups that had an interest , $$$$ in making SUVs & Pickup not look as dirty as they really were . The collection rules that you are so fond of quoting were bought & paid for by the big three auto lobby . And anyone that doubts this should watch who killed the electric car . Or look into the billions spent by the auto industry lobby to keep the loophole open and put into changing how the loophole was described .

And CAFE was instituted in 1975 , December of 1975 in the "Energy Policy Conservation Act of 1975" . Wiki , REALLY LOL , your using wiki as a place to get facts ......that really LOL........

The impression that I get here is a lot of you are of the internet age , babies many with little real experience of things . A group not of the real world age where we had to put a little effort into collecting data . What that means is just because a government agency or business group tells you something or makes "Info" available on the web what they want you to know doesn't make it a true picture of things or 100 % factual . Data can be manipulated to tell about any story one wishes to tell , which I get the impression some here haven't learned yet . Don't doubt for one sec. that most of US EPA & CARB pollution data you can collect off the has been gathered in a way to tell the story they want told .


So when you figure in unregulated & unmeasured PMs , pollution during warmup time that isn't regulated and CO2 of loophole gasoline powered vehicles the earlier spec of light duty diesels are far cleaner , in the order I've alleged above loophole vehicles pre-07 MY .

Today the real polluters are in order ;

Unregulated lawn equipment , even more than power plants coal & gas fired . These are the real cause of most urban smog but the lobby that builds them has spent billions to fight any pollution regs that include them .

Aerosolized gas from being filled into gasoline powered vehicles and spray cleaners like those used to clean auto parts are the other main cause of urban smog .

Power plants coal & gas fired power plants , a whole list of pollutants come out of their stacks . Hg , CO , CO2 , a list of NOx compounds & a whole list of heavy metal compounds being on the top of that pollution list .

Heavy diesel equipment , 18 wheelers & such pre- emissions controls . Pollution that mainly in the form of large PMs that fall harmlessly to ground in short order compared to the not measured or regulated of ultra-fine PMs that come out of all gasoline powered vehicles today .

SUVs & Pickup and all vehicles that have their own CAFE outside of passenger car CAFE , pre 07 MY .

All other light duty transport , light truck & cars that have to comply with the current 27.5 CAFE in effect .


So if you use a balanced approach to look at over all from all sources the emissions coming out of light duty diesels are of no significance . The less than 1 % ( in the 0.2 % or lower range today ) of light duty diesels on the road today make a negligible impact on air anywhere in the US .

And on NOx coming out of vehicles there is evidence now that shows it actually can help to disperse ground level O3 . So NOx compound in transport regulation is a two edged sword to air quality .

Also CO2 which is about to become regulated is low , very , very extremely low out of all diesels compared to large & medium displacement gasoline powered vehicles .

 

No I'm not. By using officially recognized terms that are commonly used in the industry and media you can easily make yourself understood. Instead you choose to make up up your own term and then rant when people don't understand what you mean by it.

The law authorizing CAFE was passed in 1975. 1978 was the first model year that manufacturers were required to meet those standards. The nice thing about Wikipedia is that the source material is available at the bottom of the page. Follow the links to the NHTSA website and you can find out anything you want to know about CAFE. Including that 1978 was the first year CAFE went into effect.

CAFE | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration(NHTSA) | U.S. Department of Transportation

Interesting. My impression is that you don't know how to post a link to provide proof to back up your claims. That or you are so arrogant that you believe we will take your unsupported rantings as fact.