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Man Based Global Warming....

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by dbermanmd, Dec 22, 2008.

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  1. ufourya

    ufourya We the People

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    [​IMG]
    Thank you for the link. I think it is worth posting the graphic.

    Yes, the HUGE deficits of Obama are NOT the fault of the hated Bush. And yes, the Bush figures INCLUDE both wars.

    Yeah, this is REALLY gonna help. Let's spend MORE to relieve the debt.

    What government program that you can name comes in UNDER the projected costs? We ain't seen nothin' yrt.
     
    #1361 ufourya, Jul 1, 2009
  2. ufourya

    ufourya We the People

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    Oh, Oh, now the Aussies are beginning to wonder about a 'consensus'.

    Jennifer Marohasy Fossil Fuels Fail to Explain Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide Levels: AEF Media Release

    CHAIR of the Australian Environment Foundation, Jennifer Marohasy, today welcomed new research by Australian physicist, Dr Tom Quirk, suggesting natural environmental forces, more than just fossil fuel emissions, could be contributing to the elevated levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide [CO2].
    “Most CO2 from fossil fuels is emitted in the northern hemisphere and it takes at least six months to spread to the southern hemisphere, which means that concentrations in the northern hemisphere should go up before they do in the southern hemisphere. In fact, they go up simultaneously, which suggests that manmade CO2 emissions are not the only contributor to the rise in global CO2 and there must be some other source.”
     
    #1362 ufourya, Jul 1, 2009
  3. freo-1

    freo-1 New Member

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    Yep!

    Some of my dear Aussie friends may be somewhat socialist, but they at least are thinkers.
     
    #1363 freo-1, Jul 1, 2009
  4. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    Freo,

    You seem to forget that we live in a REPRESENTATIVE democracy! Taxes are the price we pay for doing so. If you don't like tax policy ( and I didn't under Bush and the Republican controlled congress) you are free to work to elect different representatives to speak for you. It just so happens that your side has lost the last two elections!

    When your side was in power,, I didn't like it,, but I worked hard to elect different candidates at all levels. What I didn't do is suggest that I could live by different rules because I didn't like them!

    People over $100k may pay more than 75% of the taxes,, but another statistic is that the upper 10% of net income holders control ~90% of the net worth in this country AND pay a much smaller share of the total taxes than those at the bottom, (as a percentage)

    If you feel we are living in a "Marxist/Socialist/Statist" society,, I suggest to you that you actually visit such a place and see how we differ. As I suggested before,, if you don't like the policies,, feel free to work to change them. The reality it is,, in the end the ideas that matter. For too long,, we were sold a bill of goods from the right. People (most people) have woken up and seen a different light. You feel free to Vote Palin 2012 if that works for you.

    I fundamentally disagree with you about the merit of social programs. Most social programs suffer from an acute and ongoing lack of funding. Do you realize what the single best investment in the last 50 years has been? That which returned the greatest return on investment,, bar non? Stocks, mutual funds,, infrastructure? No,, the biggest single return per $$ spent is early childhood education. For every dollar spent on early childhood education,, saves potentially $1000s in law and justice cost going forward, saves on medical care costs due to violence etc. A typical inner city anti violence program may cost $500,000 a year. Preventing one drive by shooting saves that in medical care cost, police cost, court costs and prison costs. And yet,, the first programs to be cut from any local/state/federal budget is these kind of programs. We always seem to have money for jails,,, but never for domestic violence prevention!


    I can tell you,, what is "fair" and what is "freedom" is being free from worry that you will go bankrupt because you get sick. Fair is knowing that even though one may be poor,, one will get good medical attention regardless of one's net worth. Fair is knowing that your children won't go to bed hungry because even though you can't get a job because too many have been outsource,, you won't starve.

    I challenge any and all of you to live the life on the other side for just one day! Most of us couldn't do it. On top of that we all want to say that "this could never happen to me,,, I'm too smart,, or too rich."
    Don't bet the farm on it!

    Icarus
     
    #1364 icarus, Jul 1, 2009
  5. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

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    They are supply siders with an obvious bias. I use them as a contrary indicator. Most of the financial press in this country is every bit as reliable as the reports from the companies they cover...which is to say: not at all reliable. Essentially they are touts for the business community, spinning things to suit the right wingers.
     
    #1365 Celtic Blue, Jul 2, 2009
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  6. freo-1

    freo-1 New Member

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    Based on this rather questionable statement, you are about as open minded as as the Iranian government.

    Never let actual facts get in the way of your philosophical point of view, eh?
     
    #1366 freo-1, Jul 2, 2009
  7. ufourya

    ufourya We the People

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    Mr Ickes ~

    Social programs lack funding? What government-run social programs lack is a good result for the amount of money spent.

    I suspect the words fair, compassion, need, and so forth provide statists all the ammunition they need to impose social programs from above to alleviate suffering, inconvenience, disaster, etc.

    Let's look at the proposed health care 'reform' (I put that in quotes because the larger part of health care is presently ALREADY under the control of the federal government):

    While one hears the words right, need, compassion, fairness, etc. in public discussions, one seldom hears 'forced' or 'coerced'. Back in 1993 the president's (Clinton) proposed health insurance reform bill, called the Health Security Act, included these words - prison (7 times), penalty (111), fine (6), enforce (83), prohibit (47), mandatory (24), limit (231), obligation (51), require (901) and so on.

    Today we are going to be asked (or forced) to implement a new reform which, I'm sure, will be no less coercive than the last proposals. I assure you the present problems in the health industry are the RESULT of the government and yet those proposing 'fairness' for the poor think even more government will solve all the problems. I think not.

    We constantly hear that there are 46 (or so) million Americans without health insurance. This is demonstrably false and certainly misleading. Of that number many millions are illegal aliens. Next we have people who make over $50,000 a year and CHOOSE not to have insurance. Then we have young adults who also could afford insurance, since it is not high for the younger, but would rather go clubbing, buy an I-pod, save for new chrome wheels, etc., etc. So the number is B.S.

    Are there cases where the poor and elderly need help? Yes, and Medicare and Medicaid are designed to fill that need. Both those programs, (as well as Social Security) have been MISMANAGED by the government - costs driven sky-high . So, by all means, (this is sarcasm for the easily confused) let's let them run the ENTIRE system, lock, stock and barrel.

    I don't have time right now to get into welfare, education and all the other things that government (and its drones) thinks it does better than private individuals.

    Here are a few items from an existing national health care system to cheer you up:

    The following is taken from Mark Levin's web site.

    Great Britain's National Health Service (NHS) was created on July 5, 1948. As with all government programs, bureaucrats underestimated initial cost projections. First-year operating costs of NHS were 52 million pounds higher than original estimates1 as Britons saturated the so-called free system.

    Many decades of shortages, misery and suffering followed until 1989, when some market-based health care competition was reintroduced to the British citizens2.
    Unfortunately for those requiring care, a mostly socialist health care system has problems. The articles and commentaries in this section identify some disasters caused by government intervention in the British health care system.

    I also recommend reading David G. Green and Laura Casper's economic report, Delay, Denial and Dilution: The Impact of NHS Rationing on Heart Disease and Cancer to see the inevitable outcome of the necessary rationing of government health care.



    Straight from the newspapers
     
    #1367 ufourya, Jul 2, 2009
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  8. ufourya

    ufourya We the People

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    Although you address freo-1 in your post above, you may have meant to reply to my words rather than his. Just thought I'd clear that up so freo-1 would not feel unjustly put upon.

    By the way, I forgot to link Mr. Levin's site. It is an invaluable resource of truth.

    http://www.marklevinshow.com/Article.asp?id=1395081&spid=32364

    P.S. I chose the system in the U.K. to list here rather than Canada's to spare Fibber any further embarrassment. You must read every single link before you may reply, comrade Ickes.
     
    #1368 ufourya, Jul 2, 2009
  9. Politburo

    Politburo Active Member

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    No, they do not. The figures in the graph exactly match the Bush OMB-reported budget deficits.
     
    #1369 Politburo, Jul 2, 2009
  10. ufourya

    ufourya We the People

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    Sometimes it helps to read in addition to looking at pictures:

    UPDATE: Many Obama defenders in the comments are claiming that the numbers above do not include spending on Iraq and Afghanistan during the Bush years. They most certainly do. While Bush did fund the wars through emergency supplementals (not the regular budget process), that spending did not simply vanish. It is included in the numbers above. Also, some Obama defenders are claiming the graphic above represents biased Heritage Foundation numbers. While we stand behind the numbers we put out 100%, the numbers, and the graphic itself, above are from the Washington Post. We originally left out the link to WaPo. It has been now been added.

    Sorry, nice try!
     
    #1370 ufourya, Jul 2, 2009
  11. Fibb222

    Fibb222 New Member

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    #1371 Fibb222, Jul 2, 2009
  12. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

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    On the contrary I need only compare their record of prognostication with the economic performance of their ideas and claims. They have failed miserably as has supply side economics.

    It's hilarious that you conservative clowns consider the market the ultimate arbiter...up until it gives you a massive FAIL as a score. And with the right wing tendency toward Iranian style heavy handedness and religious law it's doubly amusing that you would bring that nation up. :p
     
    #1372 Celtic Blue, Jul 3, 2009
  13. ufourya

    ufourya We the People

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    Rather than making a two sentence statement that bears no relation to reality or history, and then spending the bulk of your post on ad hominem attack based on your irrational hatred of freedom, why not educate yourself?

    I've mentioed this in previous posts. Our market has not been free for some time. The failures that statists enjoy pointing out are the result of state intervention, not the other way around.


    Here are the principles of a truly free market:
    1. All means of production are privately owned.
    2. The use of these means of production is under the control of private owners who may be individuals or corporate entities.
    3. Consumer demand determines how the means of production will be used.
    4. Competitive forces of supply and demand determine the prices for consumer goods and the various factors of production, including labor
    5. The success or failure of individual and corporate enterprises is determined by the profits or losses these enterprises earn, based on their greater or lesser ability to satisfy consumer demand in competition with their rivals in the marketplace.
    6. The market is not confined to domestic transactions and includes freedom of trade and the free movement of people internationally.
    7. The monetary system is based on a market-determined commodity (for example, gold or silver), and the banking system is private and competitive, neither controlled nor regulated by government.
    8. Government is limited in its activities to the protection of life, liberty, and property.
    Here is what Shawn Clark and others like him aparently prefer:
    1. The private ownership of the means of production is restricted or abridged by the political authority.
    2. The use of the means of production by private owners is subject to government prohibition or regulation.
    3. The users of the means of production are prevented from being guided solely by consumer demand.
    4. Government influences or controls the formation of prices for consumer goods and/or the factors of production, including labor. Government reduces the impact of supply and demand on the success or failure of various enterprises while increasing its own influence and control over market incomes through such artificial means as pricing and production regulations, limits on freedom of entry into markets, direct and indirect subsidies, and redistribution of wealth.
    5. Free entry into the domestic market by potential foreign rivals is discouraged or prevented through import prohibitions, tariffs, or quotas. Freedom of movement is prohibited or abridged.
    6. The monetary system is regulated by government for the purpose of influencing what is used as money, the value of money, and the rate at which the quantity of money is increased or decreased. All of these are used as tools for affecting employment, output, and growth in the economy.
    7. Government’s role is not limited to the protection of life, liberty, and property.
    Unfortunately, both the Republican and Democratic parties have supported interventionist policies. But we know which supports them invariably, while one at least pays lip service to the market. What we really need is another voice with the power of Reagan and the ability to clearly explain true conservative principles. Once clearly understood, Americans will embrace freedom over intervention and we can begin the long road back to economic and social sanity.

    Anyone who is not driven by ideology and has the capacity for a dispassionate look at reality can see for himself that we have not had a true free-market system for some time. In addition, a look at history will demonstrate convincingly that statist ideology is, at the very least, as repressive as the worst religious one. When the state and religion are one and the same, as in Iran, the situation is grim.


    It is important to note that the interventionist system represented by these seven points can only be implemented through violent means. Only the threat or the use of force can make people follow courses of action that differ from the ones that they would have taken if not for government intervention. Thus while intervention is usually discussed under the heading “public policy,” there is nothing “public” about them. They are coercive policies carried out by politicians and bureaucrats.

    Contrast these policies with the free market, or unhampered economy, as we defined it. What is most striking is the voluntary nature of truly market-based social arrangements. Violence or its threat is reduced to a minimum, and the individual is left at liberty to live his own life and improve his circumstances through free association with others.



    The lists of principles and the above quote come from:
    The Free Market versus the Interventionist State | The Freeman | Ideas On Liberty
     
    #1373 ufourya, Jul 3, 2009
  14. ufourya

    ufourya We the People

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    [​IMG]

    A recent cover I thought might tickle a funny bone or two, if they still exist.
     
    #1374 ufourya, Jul 3, 2009
  15. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    Hey,

    How come you guys are all in favour of free movement of capital,, without tariff or tax,,, but the free movement of labour is discouraged?

    RE:Immigration? Me thinks I smell some hypocrisy?

    Icarus
     
    #1375 icarus, Jul 3, 2009
  16. Alric

    Alric New Member

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    I think part of the problem is either an inability to analyze the problem correctly or an (un)conscious delusion. Look again at the movie you, yourself posted and you will see that every year the maxima and minima are smaller. It reminds me of slowly dying heart...
     
    #1376 Alric, Jul 3, 2009
  17. Alric

    Alric New Member

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    What I don't get about the unpatriotic anti-government movement spearheaded by conservatives is the belief that private corporations are both better than government and have society's best interests in mind.

    At least there is a chance that government has your best interest in mind. Corporations only want money under any circumstance. The current economic downturn was caused precisely by Wall Street running amok and policing themselves.

    I work in the pharmaceutical industry and we are heavily regulated by the FDA and we want that. We want an organization that regulates and monitors drug development to produce drugs that are safe and effective. I want the same for Wall Street. A government agency that regulates economic policies to make sure that the nation's economy and us are not harmed by the desire of a few to have a bigger bonus this year.
     
    #1377 Alric, Jul 3, 2009
  18. ufourya

    ufourya We the People

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    What you see and the observed data do not match, I'm afraid:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    As with the Arctic, the finding in this data is that there is no clear evidence of a change in the start of freeze up or the start of the melt. Unlike the Arctic sea ice, of course, the Antarctic maximum sea ice areal coverage has actually tended to be increasing in recent years (see, and see also).

    Nice try, but no cigar.
     
    #1378 ufourya, Jul 3, 2009
  19. Alric

    Alric New Member

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    Once again I believe the problem is basic science literacy. The data you show contains no measure of extent..the y and x axis are dates...WHEN did that the maximums and minimums occurred, not their extent.

    An actual measurement of ice mass using gravity changes produces the following result:

    [​IMG]

    This is not from a blog, or a letter, or an opinion. This is from the actual people doing the measurements:

    GRACE - Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment

    Their current finding:

    Antarctic Ice Loss Speeds Up, Nearly Matches Greenland Loss - NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory

    Your links to increasing ice mass in Greenland are a misrepresentation of the results from this study:

    Recent Ice-Sheet Growth in the Interior of Greenland -- Johannessen et al. 310 (5750): 1013 -- Science

    What the science says...
    While the Greenland interior is in mass balance, the coastlines are losing ice and overall Greenland is losing ice mass.
     
    #1379 Alric, Jul 3, 2009
  20. ufourya

    ufourya We the People

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    I think there is a basic misunderstanding of freedom and patriotism in your view of the body politic. Indeed, if we are to define patriotism as support for the government, we negate the entire premise upon which this country was founded.

    As we near the celebration of this counntry's declaration of independence from the tryanny of government, it might be instructive examine the vision of our founders - the Ultimate Patriots who pledged: ..."And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."

    From this beginning, and relying, in their minds, on the protection of "Divine Providence" forged a Constitution whose MAJOR purpose was to define a LIMITED government and rely on prople to make their own decisions.

    The Constitution Series: THE CONSTITUTION PART XI - LIMITED GOVERNMENT

    The Federal Government was established to guard and secure our freedoms not to legislate, tax and regulate the people into dependents and in a very real sense servants of the government.

    In 1788 during the Constitutional ratifying Convention in New York, Alexander Hamilton described the Federal Government as follows:

    "The great leading objects of the federal government, in which revenue is concerned, are to maintain domestic peace, and provide for the common defense. In these are comprehended the regulation of commerce that is, the whole system of foreign intercourse; the support of armies and navies, and of the civil administration."

    Hamilton described a government limited in power yet created for the security and cohesiveness of the nation.

    In 1821 Thomas Jefferson warned of the consequences of an unfettered and limitless government:

    "When all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another."


    The vision of the Founders and Framers of the Constitution for the Federal Government have been left behind in the regulatory, burdensome, exhaustive, over reaching and over taxing government that now leads this nation. Its power is limitless, and its influence and intrusion in the lives of We the People have already begun to crumble the foundational principles on which this nation was founded.

    So, Alrick, if you think being a patriot is supporting the huge, bloated, over-inflated, power-hungry leviathan that is located in Washington, D.C., you are mistaken. P.E.R.I.O.D.

    Wake up! Ciitizena! Let's begin to take our country back from those who would enslave us to the state, from the statists who believe that government should be more powerful than the voice of the people and that being a patriot is supporting slavery to the state.

    May Divine Providence help us!
     
    #1380 ufourya, Jul 3, 2009
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