Man Based Global Warming....

Shawn,

St Joseph Hospital in Bellingham WA,, with a service population of ~150k controls over 80% of the health care dollars spend in it's host county! 80%! Virtually all health options revolve one way or another into St. Joe's orbit,, from labs, to out patient clinics, surgical practices etc. The fact that they are "not for profit" doesn't mean they exist for the public good, even though they get considerable tax subsidy for things like ER, medicare/medicaid etc.

KUOW 94.9 FM Puget Sound Public Radio has a link to my previous post.

Icarus

 

I second this post.

Here is some more prose to ponder:

Obama Can't Be Trusted With Numbers - WSJ.com

For our left leaning crowd, get past who the message is from and actually READ it. (You just may learn something).

BTW, the public is slowly waking up to the fact we have elected Jimmy Carter II (worse, actually).


Rasmussen Reports: The Most Comprehensive Public Opinion Data Anywhere

Notice the liberals with the most outrageous posts have noting to back up their rants.

 

What I will never figure out is why it's fine to blow through $3 trillion to fight wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but not okay to spend $787 billion here in the US (of which, unfortunately, very little has been spent).

Clinton raised taxes and then presided over the country's greatest economic boom of the last 50 years (and he says Obama is doing now what he would do). When you're so much in the hole, getting things on the right course and decreasing uncertainty among business people, investors and consumers will do more good than cutting taxes.

 

I think the real problem all along has been Pakistan. Afghanistan is just their hangout. We have our hands full trying to get this genie back into the bottle.

Based on the Obama's administration performance to date, I am somewhat worried. They have passively thrown the Iranian opposition under the bus, performed very poorly regarding Honduras, and North Korea so far does not look promising. They seem to be adopting the Neville Chamberlain approach (which did not work out in the 30's very well).

The other under reported story is Iran and Israel. It is only a matter of time before Israel takes matters into their own hands, and our administration's stance is, at best schizophrenic (Biden says one thing, Obama says someting else, what else is new?)

 

I do not doubt that the earth has warmed during my life time. I just do not believe that man is the cause. Visit an Alaskan ice park and see where the ice has receeded between 1700, 1800, (and since) ... long before Mama got her SUV. We know the earths climate fluctuates, always has ... as do sun spots.

I believe it is all about politics, and I am convinced that after our economy has been absolutely ruined, climate conditions will remain unchanged.

But what has this to do with Prius (Chat)? ... except I am going to do my part. My G3 IV arrives in port tomorrow.

 

A Karl Rove opinion piece??? You really need to find some better reading material than Dubya's brain and the failed business lobby mouthpiece (WSJ.) He's a political operative who did the marketing for the most disastrous economic policies since the 1920's. This is like Hoover critiquing FDR's performance.

Plus he employs the same sort of short sighted reasoning that afflicts most conservatives by pointing out that unemployment has been rising. No duh! It will take a long time to turn this boat around after 8 years of heading in the wrong direction.

The stimulus ended up much weaker than it should be on actually improving our infrastructure and energy policy. And why? Because of the conservatives who opposed those sort of things.

But you have to do thing at the country's pace, and the country is not ready to take full measures to fix things. So half measures have been taken.

It is going to be tough for Obama for the first few years, but at least with him we have a chance of avoiding an outright depression. With the McCain/quitter-Palin ticket and "Mental Recession" Phil Gramm as economic advisor we would be cooked by now.

It's damned funny that conservatives want to judge everything Obama does on a such a short timescale, mostly before it is even started implementation...but they would judge the Bush presidency and the Iraq/Afghan wars a generation or two removed. Accountability, they have no clue what it means.

By the way, Jimmy Carter was not a great president, but he did a lot to help the nation out by appointing Paul Volcker...the one most responsible for the recovery that Reagan gets so much credit for. And who is one of Obama's advisors: Volcker. Meanwhile conservatives give us Dubya, Cheney, Gramm, Rove, and Greenspan.

 

Felt,

"I believe it is all about politics, and I am convinced that after our economy has been absolutely ruined, climate conditions will remain unchanged."

You can believe what you wish for whatever reasons you wish,, but the FACTS are,, the overwhelming majority of peer review science disagrees with your belief.

The question I have for all you climate change deniers out there who think this is some sort of vast left wing, liberal, socialist, communist (choose the adjective of your choice!) conspiracy, what could possibly be the motivation to "fake it"? If liberals are so shitty at managing things why are they so good a convincing all of us? So which is it? are we evil genius's or are we incompetents? Seems you can't have it both ways?

Like those moon landing deniers,, who still think that Neil Armstrong was a creation of the Hollywood back lot. Just keep your heads wrapped in aluminum foil,,,and the voices in your heads will go away.

Icarus

 

Icarus,

"head wrapped in aluminum foil .... voices"

There is no cause to be insulting ... it's not becoming. Just leave it that I can "believe what I want." I am not offended that you have a different opinion.

Good grief ... is this the mentality that I am joining when I purchase a Prius?

How about we all get back on topic?

 

Felt,

My apologies sir,, perhaps my comment to you should rightfully been directed at some others in this threads. (If you read back a few (hundred) posts there is a pretty heated debate going on,, and I think some who deny global warming have their heads in the sand,, and few need the tin foil hats.

Icarus

 

YEP!!! Welcome to the wonderful world of the Hybrids!!! :rockon:

 

This is the guy who wrote the bill. He himself admitted on the radio, that he doesn't even know what is in the bill!!!

Here is what makes the crap and change bill volatile, No one fricking read that damned thing before voting on it. In fact it wasn't even printed until after it was voted on! At 3AM the day of the vote, a 300 page document was added, no one read it. How can anyone with a reasonable mind allow this to happen?

 

Icarus,

Apology accepted.

I know this is a controversal topic. So many "experts" all with different opinions.

But I am excited about my Prius, and I expect it to do wonders for teh climate, and my cash flow. It is due in the port today!!

Thanks, and have a great day.

 

This is one of the saddest statements I've read in this thread. The experts all agree that anthropogenic global warming is a reality and something must be done.

The dissent comes from non-peer reviewed opinion of a few individuals.

It is not a case of equally arguable points of view. It's science against FUD.

 

But it is a case of equally heart-felt points of view. As long as those on the FUD side are driving a Prius and helping save the planet, it's good.

 

There are 3 levels of opinions.

First are those who are adamant that man is the sole cause of the warming trend, and think everyone should give up their lifestyle and all their money and live in a grass hut and eat nuts and berries, or worse yet have the government control all our daily routines and tax us all to death.

Second are those who are aware that temps are rising, but its part of the natural cycle. These are the moderates who believe that doing what we all can as citizens of the planet to help the environment, and agree cutting emissions and pollution is a good thing, but not being forced to do it by those in group 1.

Third are those who are adamant that it is not happening at all and we should continue doing what we have been doing, and don't care one bit at all about the environment. These are the ones that think those in both group 1 and group 2 are nuts and should be sent off a cliff like a bunch of lemurs. These are the ones you will never see driving a hybrid, but monster SUV's and tossing their beer cans and mcdonalds garbage out the window as they drive down the road.

Many Prius and other hybrid owners fall into the second category, the wackos and fanatics fall into the first one.

 

This is America so there are probably at least a couple hundred million different opinion. I sure don't fall into any of the three given.

I definitely believe that much of the rising temperatures is man-caused. Some of that is the preponderence of the scientific interpretation of evidence. Some of it is the realization that if we aren't responsible for much of it, there is nothing we can do but spend trillions of dollars this century trying to deal with the effects of a warmer earth (i.e., building a dike around Florida isn't going to be cheap).

And dealing with global warming isn't going to tax anyone to death. But we Americans love to pay taxes,as long as we're paying them to banks, hospitals and drug companies. Because everyone knows that businesses are always run by the brightest, most honest and most hard-working people.

 

ACDII: Au Contraire mon amis,


"First are those who are adamant that man is the sole cause of the warming trend, and think everyone should give up their lifestyle and all their money and live in a grass hut and eat nuts and berries, or worse yet have the government control all our daily routines and tax us all to death."

I think your over simplification is one downfall to your argument. I for one have never said that man is the sole cause of global warming,,What I have said is that man and his activities are a significant, no a very significant contributer to global warming

Second,, I have never said that "everyone should give up their life style and all their money and live in a grass hut, and eat nuts and berries" What I have said,, and what I do 'walk the walk' is advocate that significant reductions can be made in CO2 emissions with some rather simple changes. I live off grid, design and build small scale Pv solar systems. By using good design, proper energy efficient techniques etc our energy use is ~1/6 the average American's with little reduction in our life style. Carrying other ideas forward, eating local food, driving less, indeed driving a Prius all can contribute to a net reduction of personal CO2 emissions. (The added benefit for me is that my cost of living has gone down along with my energy costs. My small solar system cost ~$2000,, but we buy no fuel for the generator,, and pay no utility bill. The Prius saves 1/2 over the Subaru it replaced,,, and my VW Caddy truck quadruples the mpg of my Chevy 1/2 ton. True,, on occasion,, I have to borrow or rent a bigger truck,, but the net/net cost is way less).

Third, if we had rational tax policy that used the tax code(s) federal/state/local to encourage people to make the changes needed that pay bid dividends to all.

One could certainly make the argument that without government regulation,, cars would be as dirty as they were in the 1950's. I personally am thankful for the improvement!

Did you know that when California enacted energy standards for appliances, the right wing yelled and screamed that "oh we'll never be able to afford fridges ever again" What happened in FACT was,, the average efficiency of a fridge has gone up by a fact of ~4 in the last 15 years,, and the price has (on a per cubic foot basis), gone down by half,,, not in inflation adjusted dollars,, but in real dollars. You now use 1/4 as much energy with a fridge that costs 1/2 as much. I call that a case of win/win/win. And guess what,, government mandated it,, and manufactures said " if we want to sell into the second biggest market in the world, we better get our shit together!"

Finally, I don't consider many of the energy mandates an intrusion on my daily life,, nor do I think I am taxed to death. As I have stated in many posts,, my tax burden, relative to the services I receive is quite small compared to the rest of the world. Do I wish much was better spent? You bet,, but do I blame environmental regulations? Not at all. The complaint that we won't be able to buy conventional light bulbs is a great case in point. CFL makers have come up will all kinds of CFL that fully mimic almost all configurations and Kelvin colors of conventional bulbs, al while bringing the cost down to almost as cheap. Factor in the energy savings and once again it is a win/win/win. (And please don't give me the tired argument about mercury in CFLs. That is an argument that has been completely debunked time and time again.)

So, as I said before,, you are all free to "believe" what you wish. But remember that believe is based on that which is not verifiable in fact. You can believe in God, as we have no proof to the contrary,, but if you believe that there is no such thing as man caused global warming,,, you are indeed delusional.

Icarus

 

FAIL. Those in no way describe the major divisions and certainly not those here. It is however the way conservatives WANT to characterize the opposition which greatly outnumbers them. You and your friends keep repeating this lie hoping it will stick.

There is nobody in the debate here on PC that fits into your #1 category as far as I can identify, and few that fit into #2. While you try to characterize yourself as #2, most of your arguments and those of your buddies are anti-efficiency/fossil fuel reduction and are mostly anti-science. We have a few #3's that hang about.

You are actually arguing against the real moderates who you've failed to even account for. This is presently a plurality or even a majority of the nation (and is the majority in industrialized nations.)

Taking a stab, most PC'ers would probably fall into a category of believing the global warming that we have observed so far is occurring, and as a result of human activities. That does not mean that they ignore all other impacts or variability or that they claim to know where we are in all of the various natural cycles. (Ironically, you DO claim to know where we are in these cycles, else there would be no way for you to dismiss CO2 forcing.) And it is pretty safe to say that most PC'ers do believe in improving EFFICIENCY and finding alternative energy sources rather than going back to a pre-industrial lifestyle. But you foolishly reach the conclusion that wasting less is regressive.

There is of course a subset of folks who would prefer a pre-industrial lifestyle. Haven't seen them posting here...perhaps their grass huts lack internet access.

What's funny is that you and the other denialists claim to know so much more about forcings than anyone else, and particularly more than climatologists. You go on trying to classify actual scientific consensus as religion and trying to cast doubt on modeling at such...but the only way to justify your position is to claim (without supporting evidence) that you know precisely where we are in all the natural cycles that we are still striving to understand.


This is something I've pointed out for decades: the conservative's approach to climate change is non-conservative. Assuming that none of us know where we are in the natural cycle during this interglacial, there are three equally likely scenarios.

1. We are in what would be a naturally cooler period.
2. We are in what would be a naturally neutral period.
3. We are in a naturally warming period.

Conservatives assume #3, which any good engineer will tell you is a non-conservative assumption. If you are wrong, we fry. That would qualify you for membership with the "wackos and fanatics" as you put it.

 

Worst summary of opinions ever....

No grass huts for me man. Decarbonization of the economy the creation of a smart grid, among other things, is going to revolutionize the low-power, hi-tech gadgetry in our lives and create a lot of wealth doing it. It just won't be going to the oil barrons... boo hooo.

 

To see this debates about who believes what is disheartening. The only results that should matter are those published in peer-reviewed journals. Science is not a democracy, it is data and its published interpretation by experts.

It is just like needing surgery. Would you care what is the opinion of bloggers, op-eds and your neighbor? Or would you follow your doctors recommendation?