Report: Honda fast-tracking updates to improve Insight

Hindsight blunder!

Hybrid buyers are not stupid. Well, a few fell for the initial Insight hype (shame on you!).

The 2010 Insight is at the level of the 2001 Prius in term of interior room, power, acceleration, MPG, etc. There are two Prius generation gaps to close! Each Prius generation is not a small upgrade either!

A smaller car suppose to
- Cost less to operate (more fuel efficient) but the Insight doesn't.
- Cost less to purchase. Insight costs $505 less than Prius if comparably equipped.

 

Without the new Insight, Toyota might not have lowered the price on the G3. So be thankful for that.

 

Hmmm...so much for Hinton's market theories about the Insight vs. the Prius. :lol: And with the new Prius price point also his theories about profitability of the Prius platform.

It doesn't appear that Honda can do much for the Insight's competitiveness on the current platform. They've already boxed themselves in too much. I doubt they will get satisfactory volume out of the 2+2 market since the performance aspect is missing and the mileage is not improved as one would expect based on size and performance. The trade-offs just don't work in their favor.

 

missed my chance yea!!

thank goodness they werre not enthused. back in january i told my local honda folks that i would put $1000 down payment on the new insight. they were less than enthused so i just "forgot about it" a few months ago i took a look at the new insight. found it kind of nice. found that the 2010 prius was "only" about "$2500" more. got mine in one day much better. glad i missed the insight:rockon:.

 

The engineering trade-offs is limited due to the inferior design in the case of IMA. Building hybrid architecture on top of existing complex traditional car was not wise.

Their decision not to invest in NiMH was not wise either. They now have to buy inferior cells at maybe premium price. By looking at the amp of the HV pack, it looks like Toyota gets the best cells and the rest get sold to Honda or Ford.

 

It is inferior in terms of absolute efficiency compared to HSD. But Honda's IMA is rather simple and has the potential to be very inexpensive while modestly improving fuel economy.

Honda is still using cylindrical cells. Toyota is using prismatic cells. Prismatic cells have a definite power/capacity advantage. Unfortunately, large format NiMH prismatic cells are patented by Cobasys (now Bosch). I don't recall how Toyota gets around that, but they did have to pay a licensing fee at least once a while back when they were sued by Cobasys.

 

The IMA mild hybrid technology is very very good and quite elegant in its implementation ... but it's absolutely boxed in by its own limitations. The HCH and the Insight II are far better for fuel economy than any normal ICE-only vehicle.

Neither however are much of a match for the full hybrid technologies of Toyota and Ford and even GM if it ever gets its 2-Mode off the drawing board. Each maker has staked out its territory.

 

If Honda would just add 6", they would go from below average to hero. Never under estimate the value of a few inches Honda. I mean to the wheelbase you know... The Prius is a hit for more than fuel economy (which Honda fell short on) the interior room of the Prius was a BIG selling point for me. Am I alone? It would seem not.

 

Actually, GM is boxed in too. The physical design is trapped within a traditional transmission housing. So, it has configuration limitations that Ford & Toyota don't.
.

 

To most people, IMA is simple because it has minor difference between it and a traditional car. Replace the fly wheel between engine and transmission with an electricmotor which also play roles of alternator and starter.

That's easy to understand but IMA still need the damn complicated mechanical CVT. HSD has electric CVT so there is a second motor with huge torque for "low gear". That fact alone makes HSD simpler. Other than that, IMA has everything HSD has; just less powerful in the electric side. IMA makes up the anemic electric side with high revving ICE that just makes more noise and less refined.

You are right about the cylindrical and prismatic cells. It seems prismatic cells are only available to those license from Toyota. Altima hybrid has prismatic cells. I think GM 2-mode hybrids only have cylindrical cells as well.

Prismatic cells use by Toyota and Lexus hybrids are not large format. They are 6.5 Ah only and "large" format is 8.0 Ah (if I recall). I remember Toyota settle a case with Cobasys too. I think that was for the general NiMH chemistry patent.

HSD can be inexpensive too. It doesn't need EGR and EHR. Those are just for extra MPG, lower emission, creature comfort and additional refinements. Power density of the inverter keep increasing and that reduces the cost. As the price of the electronic parts come down due to mass production, HSD may be able to match or beat IMA cost.

 

Agreed, but that is also a very simplified and highly theoretical interpretation of the integration challenges behind the latest IMA's. We can discuss this in greater detail if you wish.

Yes, the mechanical CVT is more complicated but is is much simpler than a standard 5-6 speed auto... and it does produce jaw dropping results when coupled with the best hardware possible (which the Insight II does not have).

You know, the kind of results similar to what I get when travelling the ~750 miles in 12 hours, on my way to HybridFest. Arriving with a loaded car (as some of you saw) and a 74.3 MPG (actual) while keeping speeds in the 55-65 MPH range is all courtesy of its CVT and the SAHM mode the combo provides. I don't expect you to know what that means if your emphasis is predominantly urban driving but then again, don't ignore its potential.

This is in part why we picked the car for the 48 state world record and unless we find a good Easter egg in the 2010s, the Prius III is still not going to make the cut in this area either as many of us sadly have already determined. This is true even when we try to hook SHM in the IGN(19-22) range.

Would we have picked the Insight II for the challenge? Heck no, never!! Its CVT tuning and other technical deficits would make the worst performer of the three.

Lastly, engine noise at higher RPMS only becomes a noticeable issue when being pounded by a lead foot and on this mark the subjective lack of refinenement applies to my Gen 2 and Gen 3 Prii too. For the record, I rarely ever take my cars above 2500 RPM so don't ask me what bad driving inputs lead to in terms of noise in any of my cars.


Cheers;

MSantos