GM wants a 230MPG rating from the EPA

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

The problem I see now is how this press release is going to dupe the public. Let's face it, a majority of the public still thinks you have to plug in the Prius! Now the headlines read GM Volt to get 238MPG and in the SAME sentence, "that is FOUR times better than the Toyota Prius". GM to me means Great Mystery. Here's what I want to know. I fill up the tank and want to go round trip to the Catskills from NYC (around 240 miles round trip). Does that mean I'll only use one gallon? Of course not!!!!! I want to see how this car behaves once the gas engine has to generate electric. This car is a f**k*ng JOKE!!!

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

I think GM should hold their speak until the EPA rates the Volt economy.

I find GM's claim to be very misleading. Volt is to be an REEV, yet they are purporting it's only use of energy is gasoline. Aaaah. Incorrect. How much energy used to charge battery?

I'll let the EPA determine economy ratings for a PHEV and REEV.

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

Oh, I wonder what the battery warranty and parts/labor replacement cost will be for the ... Chevy Volt ... whenever it becomes available.

GM: 'Look at what we can do ... Toyota, we just spanked your little Prius ... in the lab. Whooopeeee!'

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

Hope this isn't a repeat as I've been busy ALL day until now.

EPA backs away from GM claim of 230 mpg for Volt — Autoblog Green
"EPA Applauds GM Effort, but Says It Cannot Confirm Volt's Claimed 230 MPG" Green Car Advisor

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

Although a lot of blog comments are from morons/misinformed people, I spotted a favorite.

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

Just to clarify some of the issues that have come up in this thread regarding Volt energy consumption in the different modes.

In city driving in EV mode, testing has shown it manages 5 miles per kWh.

In highway driving in EV mode, testing has shown it manages 4 - 5 miles per kWh.

After the battery is depleted, full power is still available in bursts, but it reverts to a ~40+ mpg car. The 1-litre engine will easily maintain 100 mph.

So, typically 40 miles EV range then 40+ mpg, less if you drive it hard.

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

source of your info? I am not saying it not true... but if they project 230 mpg EPA for city and only "over 100" for highway, then city and highway consumption is not anywhere close.

Also, 40+ mpg after battery is depleted? 1 litre engine easily maintans 100 mph?

I have one question: Bob, is that you?

j/k

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

um, their engine will be 1.4l that drives 80hp electric generator.

Now imagine this... 1.4l engine will power 80hp electric generator which will power wheels of the car that is heavier that Toyota Avalon.

If GM can power Avalon+ with 1.4l ICE that powers 80hp electric engine to 40+ mpg to 100mph (comfortably reached), then dear GM please put this engine into all of your cars and forget Volt... You will have revolution on your hands and you will take 90% of global market within few years.

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

As the resident Prius driving guy working with the Volt team, I can't help but facepalm at this. Fritz made the announcement in the auditorium just down from my lab, so I found out right after.

The 230mpg figure is of course a meaningless number, GM is doing what they always do and market without any logic or actual superior product.

As I've chimed in on other Volt threads, the project continues to progress slowly and with all kinds of bureaucratic garbage.

This is just teeing up for the huge mess and failure that the Volt will be...

If I found a job at Toyota, I'd leave this place in a second...

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

Exactly!..... Seems this ad campaign has distracted everyone so bad with the Sexy figures that no one is asking what the performance is "after" the battery is depleted. Can you go on a 300 mile trip for instance and keep up with freeway traffic without murdering your little 1.0 liter engine?

Something is not adding up here in the math.

Seems all is well as long as the battery has a charge, and that 40 mile run of good performance is at the expense of 6 hours of charging mind you!

After that, your performance and speed is based on whatever electricity that 1.0 liter engine can produce after all efficiency losses from the conversions from Gas to electricity.

I hate to rain on the parade, but we need a little more balance and reasoning here among all the hype and excitement of some sweet talker promising us the moon!

Seems either the battery needs to be much much bigger, or the engine needs to at least be 1.5+ liter to even be comparable with the Prius "2009 and earlier "in long distance performance.

The Prius uses a 1.5 Liter Atkinson engine which is very efficient at high rpms. The 2010 has a 1.8 liter Atkinson engine!

Seems the Volts little 1.0 liter engine would at best be "like the little engine that could" as it ramps with very high continuous rpms to make electricity for just a normal 70mph cruise as you go on your visit to Grandmas house?

Although the electric motor seems adequate enough to give good performance, its only good if it has electricity folks?

Imagine the Prius with a 1.0 Turbo engine..."non-Atkinson" I cannot imagine the volt performing any better that that once its battery is gone?

Its easy when were young to fall in love and be infatuated as to see no evil and only meditate upon the promises and wonderful hopes, when in reality, theres was no one to bring home the bacon!..... What will bring home the bacon when the battery dies?... the 1.0 liter engine thats not even hooked up directly but has to make electricity first and "then" sent to another electric motor?

Yes, a 1.0 liter engine would get great gas mileage if you didnt kill it and run it to the hilt with constant high rpms overworking it, but at what speeds and what performance?

Do we really want to have a car with meager performance similar to the gutless first generation Honda insight with its 1.0 liter "995cc" engine once the battery drains? Oh yes, the Volts engine is "turbo".. that will make the difference!

Chevys only hope is to put a much bigger battery bank, but preferably a larger engine which will add weight and cost.
And of course the ultimate is to do both!

There is probably a good reason we haven't seem this car released yet!... I'm sure there is a struggle between that the engineers say can be done verses what marketing wants to claim to the public in order for it to sell.

IMO, 40K is a bit ridiculous for the amenities and performance we will get. 6 hours of charging for short commutes may fit some peoples bill, but not most of us!

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

Sadly, the news media is neglecting to mention the need to plug-in and the price. It's simply being promoted as a technology superior to anything currently available.

Just think how the typical consumer will react after discovering the $40,000 sticker price.
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Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

The 230 mpg is probably computed the same way that the Prius 50 mpg is figured. Whenever you set a standard, someone will design something to take full advantage of that standard(racing sailboats are designed specifically for the standards they race under- sometimes disregarding safety).
The Volt is a commuter car, once the battery gets low, you are running on engine power alone(less 15-20% in generator-motor losses), probably no faster than 45 mph. The Prius EV Mode is also a bit of 'smoke and mirrors' PR hype.
Then there is the problem with 'charging stations'; at apartment parking lots and at work. Not really a problem in very northern climates where 120 vac is supplied for engine heaters in the winter.

 

Well, thats the problem. GM makes a lot of promises .... but has a hard time delivering on them

Consider their attitude to hybrids when the GenII first became popular: just a marketing gimmick, didn't make any business sense, etc etc

So, for a company that went Tango Uniform, how is their version of a hybrid any better, strictly in a business sense, compared to HSD??

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

Maybe by having this green project, they get tons of money from the government?
There has to be "some" motivation for dragging this on so long without producing a product on the market?

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

I'm looking forward to driving my 2010 Prius to the local GM dealer for a test drive in the Volt ... someday. <GRINS>

Actually, I have no expectations of a Volt test drive for at least 2-3 years if GM's past practices apply. They didn't seed two-mode hybrids to the dealers. I'll go by at noon and check but I suspect they still haven't got any 'test drive' models on the lots. So it makes sense that the Volt will also be an "order first and test drive later."

The other thing is to point out is what early adopters of Prius are facing:

• NHW10 - a Japanese market only, a few were exported and the UK, Australian and others have found 1st generation batteries have been expiring and other mechanical problems are difficult to address outside of Japan. Now ~12 years in service.
• NHW11 - about 54,000 in the USA, they are starting to see more battery, accelerator, steering and transaxle failures. The oldest ones are approaching 9 years and have provided terrific insights to what is needed in a USA Prius.

The first GM's Volt will come in more like the NHW10 model in terms of actual 'on the road' experience. There will be significant lessons to be learned, which none of us can predict today. I admire the courage and pity the grief of the first adopters. From what I've read, I have no interest in being one of them.

Bob Wilson

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

Its by no means superior!... making an electric car that has a piggyback generator can be done in your garage with a simple voltage relay that kicks on the generator when the batteries drop to a given voltage!

The Prius on the other hand, is a car that works with the gas engine in tandem together in an undetectable synergistic fashion with two other electric generators trading with off with each other in a perfect fashion thats virtually undetectable by the driver! This is not a small feat, as it gives the most efficient combination of power verses mileage!
Honda's hybrid has not even been able to pull off the advanced sophistication of the prius!

Sometimes simple can be better, but in this case, the volt is an example of trying to sell a half baked cake as if its perfectly suitable for a wedding, and at a wedding price no less!

Sounds like Toyota may have grounds for a lawsuit.

 

I highly doubt it! Of course, since the Volt does not yet exist, it would be more grammatically correct to say "Some people are claiming that if the Volt were built it might possibly get 48 mpg." But that's just correcting the grammar. A more likely correct statement would be "If they actually built the Volt it would probably get around 24 mpg when running on gas."

I do not have the citation at hand, but the last I read was that the Volt would not after all recharge the batteries using the gas engine. The original design concept was for it to do this, but then they changed their minds, and the gas engine would function only to provide electricity for the motor, and not recharge the battery. This of course will result in lower overall gas mileage since that excess energy will go to waste.

All this, of course, is assuming they actually build the car, which is wishful thinking.

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

Only 230mpg? That's NOTHING !

Look what THIS new imaginary / not-even-built-yet car is claiming:

My MPG is Bigger Than Yours: Nissan Says Leaf Will Get 367 MPG | Motortrend News & Auto Blog - Wide Open Throttle

Oh ~ by the way ... I'm building a car too. MY imaginary / not-even-built-yet car gets ONE MILLION miles per gallon ... what do you think of that!

.

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

All good comments.

Consider that you could fill a museum with GM products that were announced with great hype ... then disappeared: The Vega; the Corvair; the 4-6-8 engine; cam in the valve cover; Toronodo; diesel; and I am sure you can add even more.

OK, the Volt is introduced. Can you imagine the threads that will follow? Just read some of the threads on the Prius .... Prius Owners Are Fibbers; Poor Acceleration; Battery Dying?; Help, Better Fuel Efficiency .... and etc.

I am all for energy efficiency, and I love the idea of green vehicles and reduction of foreign oil. But I see that the EPA is already distancing themselves from the 230 mpg claim. But congress wants small, fuel efficient cars and GM is just feeding congress

 

Re: Chevy Volt - 230MPG EPA City?

Well, they view it as a marketing move to show what GM is capable of.. and perhaps to build an affordable Volt by second or third generation. If EPA gave it a 230 mpg rating, it would also help meet the government average mpg requirements if they could sell a decent amount.

By then of course Toyota, Honda, and Nissan will have plenty of plug in hybrids that are more affordable and reliable, GM will hemorrhage money on the project and move on to some other marketing ploy, and all will be the same.

I'm angry today...