Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats-LA TIMES

What puzzles me is why those people claimed they failed to shift to 'N'.
Why? Sure, the engine would rev pass red light and engine power would get cut off.
So what? At least one still have the power assist braking and steering.

Now we know that the Power button may be confusing to most in a emergency situation.

 

What has happened is truly tragic.

It seems to me, Toyota needs to provide an immediate and intuitive shut off method. Holding the power button for 3 seconds is not an acceptable method. 3 seconds can be an enternity. As the article pointed out, in a panic situation someone uninformed or simply unaware could easily press the power button without waiting for the 3 second count.

Seems to me the safest and easiest way would be to remove the 3 second delay. The other option would be inclusion of a totally seperate, easily reached Emergency Power Cut button.

"Another potential fix, he said, involves reprogramming the engine's computer to automatically cut power when a driver brakes while the gas pedal is depressed."-From The Article.

I don't particularly like this fix as I think it could lead to people accidently cutting power. Unintended power loss can be as dangerous as unintended acceleration. I think you would just be trading one problem for another. So I don't like this idea.

 

the solution is simple; ejection seat.

 

First of all may I say I am very sorry for the family and friends of this family.

But, the bottom line is, trained Police Officer or not, the guy panicked.

If a member of his family had time to call the emergency services on his cellphone, the driver had time to look down and select neutral and / or keep his finger on the power switch to kill the engine.

On the matter of the power switch, I can see why Toyota (and probably other's) build a three second delay into the power switch, the last thing you need travelling down the freeway is touching the power switch by accident and killing the engine.

 

I see nothing wrong with the proposed solution. "Cut power" can mean that engine rpm is reduced to idle speed when the brake pedal is depressed. This does not have to mean that the engine is turned off.

The article also offered a good insight about how the brake power assist could potentially disappear with the engine at full throttle and the vacuum booster depleted if the driver pumped the brake pedal more than a couple of times. (This particular issue is not applicable to Prius BTW.)

Before this became a big issue publicized worldwide, I would say that only a very few Prius Chat members would be able to recall and apply the knowledge that you must hold the POWER button down for at least three seconds before the power will go off, when faced with an emergency situation. Further, a few 2G forum members have reported that the POWER button must be held down for a much longer period of time to shut down if their combination meter ECU is not functioning, so the 3 second rule is not guaranteed to work regardless of circumstance.

I think that the current program to remove the 2G driver's side mat or secure it with plastic ties is a waste of time for all involved.

 

I have been closely following the various threads about "runaways,"
and their possible/alleged causes. All the comments have been very
helpful in getting an academic understanding of what steps can
be taken.

I've never had reason to try to shut the car down when at highway
speeds. Well, now I do: I need to know/experience for myself in a
non-emergency situation what will happen.

I'll have to do a test, under simulated "runaway" conditions. It's going
to be difficult to find a pretty much deserted section of
highway/beltway. Maybe, in the middle of the night.

My plan:
When there are few/no cars behind me;
Get up to 60 mph, press hard on the go pedal to create an increasing
RPM condition...
Shift into Neutral, see what happens.

Go back into Drive, and back up to 60 mph, again press hard on the go
pedal to create an increasing RPM condition...
Hold the Power Button in, and see what happens, and how long it
takes to take effect.

I think we all, Gen II and Gen III drivers alike, should consider trying
something like this ASAP, as finding safe conditions permits.

 

Does the Lexus 350 also have a push button starter? Not sure why his first instinct wasn't to kill the engine but I'm sure it was impossible to think straight in that senerio. Makes me think I should put a label by the power switch to depress for 3 seconds to kill engine in an emergency.

Edit: Looks like on Edmunds they show it as available. Better make a label and explain to the Wife.

 

I can see why Toyota doesn't want the Power button to be instant off. That would cause problems too. I would keep the 3 second delay, but also add a "multiple press off" mode to the button. Someone in a panic trying to power down will most likely do one of the following to the Power button:

1) Press it and hold it down for dear life.

2) Go press-press-press-press "WHY DOESN'T THIS THING TURN OFFFFFF..."

Hold it down - off, press twice in quick succession - off.

This is a fix that could be done in firmware. Adding another button is a redesign.

Tom

 

I'd love to know if you lose all braking when you kill the engine. Please post what happens if you do this test.

 

The 3 second rule can be applied to the proposed fix. If a vehicle is accelerating and the brake is applied for 3 seconds then the engine should reduce to idle. It is unlikely that someone would be accelerating and braking simultaneously. If engineering can make a traction or stability control system, I don't see why they cannot make this acceleration control system also.

 

Before reading these stories and threads, I for one had no idea I could cut power by holding down the power button for 3 seconds, and I've been driving either a Prius or a HyCam for over 5 years. Before reading this particular story, I also had no idea you could lose the power brakes in this fashion. Before reading these stories, I would hope I would have had enough sense to try putting it in neutral, but there is no accounting for panic. Personally I like the idea that pressing the brakes should always override any actual or computer perceived accelerator press. It has the virtue of reinforcing that one should not ride the brake in any case, unless you are trying to stop. I suppose the big red panic stop button idea (or maybe it should be a panic neutral button) has some merit too, but the idea of some obnoxious looking red on yellow text advisory by the power button probably serves the same function. All in all, the brake overriding accelerator seems the fastest and most intuitive solution from a driver perspective. As others have said, it doesn't have to totally cut power, and could possibly be countermanded by taking your foot off the brake and again pressing accelerator (yes, I see the problem with possible recurrence if you have stuck accelerator).

 

BRK,

You raise a good point. I wouldn't expect to loose braking, at least not
immediately. The Gen II has a Power Source Backup Unit, (IIRCC,
sometimes called an electrical "accumulator" -- super capacitor?) that
is independent of the normal HV battery-DC to DC converter-12v
system. See page 6-6 here:

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/Hybrid16.pdf

The question remains, how many brake pulses or how long does the
system provide power assisted braking. I think/hope that even after
discharge of the Backup Unit there is still unassisted braking.

I'm going to do a test for my own peace of mind... I just have to find
the time/conditions. It may have to wait until Super Bowl Sunday
during game time when in my experience the local highways are
nearly deserted.

And I will report what I discover.

I won't mind at all if someone else does a test and posts up sooner. :clap2:

 

Regarding the idea of gaining experience shifting into N, depressing the POWER button while underway, etc., I think this is all good. However, shifting into N is not so easy and simple.

On 2G for example, you must move the little joystick to the left and hold it there for a couple of seconds. How many 2G owners can recall this info, especially when faced with an emergency? How many can even find the joystick when they need to?

Proof of this is that from time to time, 2G owners have complained about rusty front discs, evidenced by brake noise. I usually suggest they get up to speed, say 40-50 mph, then shift to N and slow down to a stop. Repeat a few times. Of course, the point to this procedure is to force the friction braking to be in operation instead of regen.

Then the response is, gee I tried to shift to N but nothing happens...

 

Totally agree and was thinking the very same things myself.

 

With normal cars it's common for some people to brake and accelerate at the same time when negotiating things like startups on hills....

 

Patrick,

This is a very good point... there is a few second period in which you
have to hold the "joy stick" in the Neutral position for it to take effect.
I suppose this delay is so that momentary, unintentional movement of
the joy stick does not result in a shift.

To my mind, this is another reason to run a test and experience for
myself what happens.

Just a quick check. At 60+ mph, shifting to Neutral will not result in
over-reving MG1... right?

 

Call me a jerk, but I don't buy it. I feel bad that people died here, but these stories are just not believable. Looks to me like a handful of unethical people, perhaps the lawyers, just trying to make a buck off a tragedy or evade responsibility. The story at the end of that article is preposterous... "held hostage by a Camry at 100mph for 20 miles". 20 miles! At 100mph, that's 12 full minutes. Hell, in 12 minutes, he could have called the dealership and had them read the shutdown procedure over the phone! He certainly could not have maintained a panicked state that left him completely frozen for that long, that's just ridiculous. So look, I feel bad for dead, injured, orphaned, and otherwise traumatized people... but let's get real. Some, if not the majority, of these stories just don't have the ring of truth to them.

 

Hear, hear. :cheer2:
If we weren't such a litigious society, I wouldn't be so inclined to chalk it up to "McDonald's coffee". Unfortunately, although a relatively small percentage, too many folks chasing free money to believe all the stories.

 

Correct. The concern would be if the car was put into N at 40 mph when the ICE was not spinning, then it descended a steep hill and gained speed up to 60+ mph. In that example with the ICE motionless, MG1 might exceed its rated speed.