Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats-LA TIMES

One could read it that way, but not an engineer. An engineer would read it as "engineered to be as resistant to sinking as current technology allows" or something to that effect. Engineers are loath to speak in absolute terms, as we all understand that very few things are absolute.

Getting back to the main topic, a lot of words have been written, but it all comes down to a few facts:

1) Something went wrong which resulted in uncommanded acceleration.

2) The driver failed to stop the acceleration.

3) The end result was a fatal crash.

Now we get to the touchy points:

1) Family and friends of the driver are understandably sensitive about his memory. Even so, saying "He did all that could be done" without analysis is less than useful. An accident like this needs to be investigated to learn from our mistakes.

2) The driver may have missed opportunities to avoid the fatal outcome. While we can speculate on what should have been done, the fact is that the uncommanded acceleration continued.

What can we infer from this:

1) We need to know what caused the acceleration so that this failure mode can be engineered out of other vehicles.

2) Things fail in unexpected ways, even when well engineered. While training and skill can recover from some failures, it is better to not rely on them. This particular accident emphasizes the need for a simple and instinctive method of stopping a car in a runaway situation. With training a driver may know that holding the Power button for three seconds will stop the engine, but it's not an instinctive move. Holding the brake pedal to the floor is.

As engineers we should always ask ourselves "What happens if..." and try to design safety systems that work for panicked operators. It may not always be possible for every situation, but that should be our goal. The best designs require little training or skill to operate.

Tom

 

Just like lawyers!

 

I have no idea what caused the accident and I await the results of the investigation.

 

This is my first Prius and the first car I've ever owned with a key fob/+power button system. I like most everything about the Prius EXCEPT the key fob+power button - which I find to be a complete PIA. I cannot hide a key, I cannot carry the fob with me when I boat whitewater, XC ski or hike in wet conditions unless I make sure to have a bomb-proof watertight dry box or container of some sort and to replace the thing costs $300. Now this 3+ second kill switch issue. IMHO, Toyota needs to GIVE ME A STANDARD METAL KEY that I can just switch off in case of emergency and forget about the stinking key fob+button crap.

 

I believe there is a metal key in the key fob which is used when the battery wears out. You might be able to use this key for your purposes. Or not- anybody else know about this?

 

Has been discussed in these threads:

http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii-2010-prius-main-forum/64699-what-do-key-while-surfing.html

http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii-2010-prius-main-forum/64883-question-about-keys.html

 

Good points though either type of "key" is a pain to carry when I meet friends to walk in town, hike, etc. Keep missing that 5 number keypad on the Ford Exploder driver (I mean Explorer) that I had 10 years ago. I think they still have it. Apparently I am in the minority as don't know of any other auto mfg. that uses it

 

Take the battery out of the key fob. Take the key out and you can unlock the car with that. Hold the fob (without battery) to the start button to start the car.

The fob setup is better than a normal key for 99.9% of people.

Also, you can buy the fob on ebay for $50 -- you just need the dealer to program you car to the remote (or something with Techstream.)

 

I know, I need to drop this. But one last post? It just seems to me people are being a little too harsh. It's important if we are talking about reaction to a tragedy that we not only find out exactly what caused the problem mechanically, tangibly but also evaluate the reaction and I think some people are being a little unfair in that regard.

What did Frank Herbert write? "Fear is the Mind Killer"? Well panic is akin to fear. Panic is sudden gut ripping, mind numbing fear and if family and friends of the unfortunate victims are being "too supportive" in their evaluation of what happened, then I think some of us in this forum in this thread are being a little too harsh.

Bottom line to me, is whether you believe it should of never happened, or that the driver or passengers could of done more, or that it you, yourself would of avoided the tragedy given the same or similar circumstances, is all really unimportant when it comes to evaluating how Toyota as a car maker should react.

The fact that it did happen is enough. Once you have as much information about what exactly caused the physical event, you look at what is reasonable to employ in regards to keeping it from happening again.

Not enough full information is really available yet, but my gut feeling is that a 3 second delay in shut off with the main power button is not acceptable, and Toyota needs to create a whole different way that the engine can be reduced or killed immediately. I think that is what is going to happen.

But the debate over whether the statements by surviving family and friends were accurate and/or whether the driver should of done A,B,C, or D, seems unnecessary. Panic as far as logical thinking goes, changes the whole equation. Everyone has a different reaction to different situations, the threshold is going to be different for every person. Most of us, don't know how we would really react.

In trying to ensure safety of passengers and ease of operations I would say Toyota must strive to make it as easy as possible. You can't count on calm, rational and good decisions made if a car suddenly accelerates and is full of occupants.

Not knowing the driver, not being a family member or friend, I would say that from what I have read in the media the Driver did do all that he could, specifically all that he could at that time, in that situation and in that mental state.

Whether all he "could do" was all that he should of done, is a separate debate and doesn't in my opinion impact how Toyota should react. You have to assume that if it could happen it's something that could happen more than once and work towards making that as difficult a reality to manifest as possible.

 

Yep, you should have dropped it.

He didn't do all he could have or should have done, or he wouldn't be dead--unless there was some sort of massive failure wholly unrelated to the floormat (the center of this topic.) This was avoidable by the driver since it wasn't split second, there was substantial troubleshooting time. Could various things be done to make the system more robust? Probably, but that's a HUGE difference from saying the driver did everything right and therefore it was the car's fault that an accident occurred.

The BS and hysteria coming from this guy's supporters has really struck a nerve right from the very start. I figured we were going inundated by nonsense, and have not been disappointed.

Hey, he failed to come up with any one of multiple solutions and died. It's unfortunate, doesn't make him a bad person, but doesn't make him blameless either. All appearances at the moment are that he failed to handle the situation properly. Whether or not the situation should ever occur or if it should be easier to correct are after the fact.

 

You're once again underestimating the mind killing reality of sudden panic.

Simply don't take statements by surviving family and friends so personally. What do you expect them to say? How do you think they feel? It's not nonsense, it's statements made in a period of shock and grief, think we could cut them a little slack?

Slamming the victim(s) of the tragedy because YOU think they should of been able to do more, and YOU think YOU would survived is childish.

I never said the driver did everything right and therefore it was the cars fault...what I'm saying is that a tragedy developed and instead of wasting time pointing fingers at the driver, or the vehicle how about we concentrate on what can be done to make sure it never happens again, and along those lines making that something that can be done, more than just saying "It shouldn't of Happened, The Driver failed.".

It might be something as simple as Zip Ties, it might be as complicated as new software or shut off emergency buttons, but IMO it needs to be more than blaming the victims.

Surely it needs to be more constructive than becoming angry at surviving family and friends who are in shock and grief being angry and making comments YOU don't agree with.

 

My comments were in response to the absurdity of those claiming that there was no way to avoid this accident. The claims that the driver did everything possible don't hold up. Does that hurt their feelings? Sorry, but I didn't thrust this into the national spotlight, they did. Deal with it.

 

Thank you for inserting some rationality and concern for innocent victims of this tragedy. No one knows all the answers to this and anyone can sit at a keyboard and critisize without having been in that situation.

 

Hey, Clueless. Several of us have been in the stuck accelerator situation. So yes, I DO RESERVE THE RIGHT TO CRITICIZE!

Perhaps you both should read more carefully next time. Save the hysteria for gullible simpletons.

 

I defer to your name calling. You are always correct.

 

I think most people are missing the real message here. Its not just about this particular driver or any particular driver. Its not about the amount of time the driver had before the crash. That fact that some of us feel we would have handled the situation better is totally irrelevant.

Here we have a man trained in driving skills to a level well beyond the average driver. For whatever reason he could not get the system shut down in an emergency situation despite that training.

The message is: Given that level of training, if he could not shut it down how can you think the average soccer mom, teenager or senior citizen would fare any better.

 

Which was a lie. You weren't just posting pertinent information, you were taking the same stance as the original CHP screams about this. Your later posts have revealed the lie for what it was.

Nothing I detest more than liars.

 

There are so many things that we will never know about this incident.....

can a stuck mat really get a vehicle to 120mph..was there other factors?
how much time did he really have? if he had that time why did he choose to drop to a T-stop on a busy road instead of a curved continuance of a branching freeway?

It made me a little crazy when some dumb security guard at my work asked me if I was scared to drive my Prius?? This is such a rare event and it is suddenly becoming a huge deal. Bad things happen every day, somethings can be made better and that is why investigation is needed. If it can be improved than do it.

We should all just take a moment to breathe instead of yelling at each other. If anything this should encourage us to take each day to be at our best as it could be our last whether in a horrid crash or slipping in the tub.

 

deleted

 

New details in crash that prompted Toyota recall -- latimes.com

A very interesting read. I look forward to seeing the accident report summary.

Bob Wilson