Valence Tech Batt Helps Hybrid by Tripling Fuel Efficiency

Re: Valence Tech Batt Helps Hybrid by Tripling Fuel Efficien

Does this mean I'll regret not waiting for the '06 model? I realize they're talking about a prototype-sort-of-thing but my salesman did mention that Toyota will be switching to lithium-ion batteries in '06.

It sounds like the argument against buying a hybrid to save money will be flying out the window in the next couple of years.

 

The thing they neglect to mention is that the current NiMH battery-pack will last the lifetime of the vehicle, a Li-Ion mostly like will not... since their total number of charging cycles available is only about 1/10th in comparison (1,000 rather than 10,000).

NiMH is less expensive too.

So don't expect a switch to Li-Ion anytime soon. That technology is not ready to compete yet.

 

didn't Valence new Li-ion battery claim to last multiple times longer, charge faster than the current NiMH, and cost the same as the NiMH? i remember reading those on the first article about the battery. the article was posted here when it was released.

I agree, it's not complete yet. they still need to incorprate it.

 

Re: Valence Tech Batt Helps Hybrid by Tripling Fuel Efficien

Don't Li-Ion batteries have a habit of exploding?

It may be rare, and it may be due to manufacturing defects, but I seem to remember a bunch of news reports of exploding Li-Ion in lots of different devices, from cell phones to notebook computers.

I wonder what would happen when a car-sized Li-Ion battery explodes next to a full gas tank?

Just a thought.

 

traditinally, yes, they can explode. The new design is quite uniqe. Since the insides.. uh.. chemicals i guess you could say are not shapped like crystals, and more like fuzzy golfballs, the electron exchange is seamless ( you could have to see a pic.. search for one ) so. very little to no heat exchange. this design allows rapid charge and discharge with no memory effect. The insides are also enviromentally friendly too.

 

I think I read an article about this approach somewhere else today and they were shooting for $10K - $12K to add this capability to the car. You would have to save one hell of a lot of gasoline to ever pay that back.

 

The bank of batteries they refer to is not a replacement. it's a bank of batteries that fills up that black tray. I don't think anyone has replaced their EV battery with a Valence battery of equal size. am i wrong?

If only of equal size. *shrug* those are the numbers i want to see.

 

I guess I mispoke, I was talking about some outfit in CA that has a Lithium Ion battery pack that is three times the size and you plug in at night. It gives you a range of about 60 miles on electric only but they expect to sell the conversion for over $10,000

 

i've seen that. cool as a mild step for improvement.... but... overall, i think it's dumb. you make a profit, but lose storage, add weight ( normal driving mpg will go down ) and in the end, pollute with all those batteries. It's less protected because it's more towards the rear. please don't get rear ended is all i have to say. It's a dangerous idea. Now, if they take out the hsd system and all components and equip them into a car they design ( just for research purpose ) then that would be cool. a lighter car where the batteries could go in the center of the car and low. add what they want.. etc, etc, etc.

But yeah, i know of this battery pack upgrade. I just think it would possibly be better to just replace the current NiMH with a Valence Li-Ion

 

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Remember NiMH is an old technology compared to lithium-ion, so it has had many more years of development to get it up to automotive industry standards.

But LiIon has been catching up, and the price has been plummeting. In some formats which have already made it to mass-market production volumes (18650), the cost is down to about $350 per kilowatt-hour, which is less than half the price of the cheapest NiMH and cheaper even than some lead-acid.

In terms of safety, please see this video: http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp, where Valence show what happens with an old-school LiIon battery compared to their phosphate chemistry version. To cut a long story short, you can shoot high velocity rounds through it, pierce it, crush it, overcharge it, short it, whatever and there is no risk of fire (because the phosphate does not decompose).

Toyota already use Lithium-ion in the mild-hybrid Japan market only Toyota Vitz, and some locomotives in Japan use LiIon as the buffer for storing regenerative braking energy. So it's already being used in hybrids, just not over here.

Huge factories have recently been bult by companies like Hitachi (and several competitors) to churn out large format lithium-ion for the Japanese hybrid market. If they have the confidence to do this, you can be sure they've already signed agreements with the major hybrid manufacturers.

In terms of performance and cycle life, recent lithium-ion batteries are light years ahead of NiMH:

Power densities of 2,000 to 3,000 Watts per kilogram are being offered by several companies (way above the best NiMH).

200 Wh/kg is about average energy density for 18650 LiIon, compared to only 46 Wh/kg in the current Prius battery.

Toshiba's latest battery can recharge in only one minute, works at temperatures as low as -40oC and loses only 1% of its capacity after 1,000 cycles.

NiMH just can't compete with any of this. The ONLY stumbling block holding back the deployment of LiIon at the moment is coming up with an industry standard size for use in automobiles and the establishment of a market in this size so that the prices can come down to what they are in other formats (such as 18650).

 

Yes, it has lots of potential and a tremendous amount of effort being expended to make it happen. But that won't change the reality that a competitive version is still years from large automotive market use.

This is why I've spoken out against "assist" hybrids. They lack the ability to take advantage of the eventual better battery the way a "full" hybrid will.