Plug in Hybrid/EV Plugs--Propietary or Generic?

I can say that Nickel Metal Hydride batteries and Lithium Ion Batteries charge very differently. (and both charge differently than Lead Acid)

I seriously doubt a charger that could do both would be anywhere near as cheap as a charger that could only do one.

Nickel-metal hydride battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lithium-ion battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Beyond that, the only other technical difference will be the number of cells (and so output/charging voltage) in each battery. Again it will be cheaper to make a charger for a known number of cells than it will for one that can charge any number.

It seems early to mandate that all BEVs must have the same charging voltage.

Another difference will be the owner's house. I have 90 amp three phase 240v in my garage, but that is rare in a residence. 50 amp single phase 240v is all a clothes dryer needs and is much more commonly the max a homeowner has. Some owners (and most renters) will only have 15 amp 120 available to them. Since everyone will want to charge as fast as possible, expect owners to want a charging station that utilizes their building's capacity.

Using the Tesla as an example to completely recharge it.
240v 90A 4 hours
typical dryer or welder plug 240v 50A 6 hours
240v 30A 10 hours
plugged into the A/C plug in a motel room 19 hours
Household 120v 15A plug 35 hours

 

I think the point here, is that the IEEE or another standards commitee could come up with a "standard" charging plug/receptacle for 240V charging, it could have some smaller pins for communication between the vehicle/pack and the charger, and the vehicle/pack could communicate to the charger what type of chemistry/charging profile is desired, the SOC, and other information such as tempature, etc, as the pack is charging, then a universal charger that could handle all different types of EVs/Battery Chemistrys (although LiIo will be predominant), Charging Voltage, etc could be developed. In this way, all manufacturers would take the same type of "fuel". Imagine if all gas cars by every mfr required different style gas nozzles at the gas station, that would be a real disaster.

This same scenario will play out in the EV world, with each mfr developing their own plugs/receptacles/chargers, it will slow down the adoption of EVs

 

Mitch, if we are going to put that much intelligence in the charger, why not also teach it when to drain the battery into the grid, and when to charge from the grid. In the case of Plug In Hybrids, when to run the ICE to power the Grid.

In the early evening, battery power could moderate peak load, then later use uneeded capacity. In case of power failure, Plug Ins could become a 'distributed' power plant.

File:Tagesgang engl.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From 5:30 PM to 9:30 PM is a peak car batteries could supply, 11 PM to 6 AM, the cars could be charging.

 

That is being worked on, it's called "VTG", short for "Vehicle To Grid"
Vehicle-to-grid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, we don't need that in EVERY EV charger, just the ones in peoples homes. The ones at "commercial" refueling stations (think EV gas stations), don't need that technology, but would most certainly benefit from a "universal EV charger", so that any mfr EV can be recharged...

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

I would've thought that most of the basic "charger" intelligence would be built into the vehicle itself, e.g. balancing the current going into individual cells/packs; ensuring that no individual pack was overcharged; stopping the charge process if "gassing" started to occur.

The intelligence in the charging station would be to provide the optimum voltage and current to the internal charger.

The apartment station variant would be built to cope with the differences in this particular buildings' capacity and could include items such as vehicle-to-grid control and the cheapest time to activate charging circuitry.

It would also be able to detect different vehicle types: eg a Prius might require a 315V output at a maximum of 25 amps, while a Leaf might require 275V at 28 amps.

A cheaper personal variant might be dedicated to just the Prius or Insight. This would also probably have vehicle-to-grid and tariff control. Different versions could be built depending on whether the house was single phase, 110/240 volt etc. Probably a single version that automatically coped with these variations would not be that much more expensive to manufacture.

The EV "gas" station would be an upmarket variant of the apartment station but probably wouldn't require vehicle-to-grid logic.

The charger in the vehicle might even be smart enough to detect that it has been connected to a high-capacity source and reconfigure the internal "routing" to achieve fast charges i.e. < 60 minutes. In this mode, the charging station might deliver 10 individual high current charging events of 90 seconds. Each charging event being separated by a 30 second recovery break; thus achieving full charge in 20 minutes.

Information that would be passed between the vehicle and the charging station would probably include:
Vehicle Ientification Number i.e. charge-card number
Current state of charge or expected charge duration
Maximum in-rush current
Average current consumption
Maximum voltage
Duty cycle
Whether trickle charging was required once full charge was reached

This information would simplify scheduling issues when multiple vehicles needed to be serviced. The VIN could be used to manage scheduling and who should be invoiced.

The vehicle would inform the charging station when full charge was reached at which point charging could either stop or drop back to the trickle charge mode. This change in charging mode would occur in any case once 110-120% of the expected charge duration was reached.

I can see the top-up scenario working something like:
You pull up at the charging station, plug in your vehicle (and lock it), go buy a burger or three.

At some point, you would receive a text message saying that the car has charged, the cost was $xx and this was billed to your Visa.

You return to the vehicle, unplug it and drive away.

Cheers
Warwick

 

Nobody can predict what WILL be, but we can discuss what is in the public interest, what is technically possible, and what is in the manufacturer's interest.

The Nissan Leaf will have 110-v. and 220-v, chargers on board. All it needs to charge is a circuit with the appropriate voltage and amperage capacity. But there will also be a surge protector off board for 220 v. This limits the ability to charge at 220 v. away from home. It will have the ability to charge at 440 v. but will not have the charger on board, so a fast-charge station will need to know the charging program. Thus, fast charging stations will probably be proprietary.

Similarly, the Tesla Roadster has 110-v. charging built in, but the fast charger is off board, so is proprietary.

Making everything universal would require having the chargers on board unless the government mandated some sort of universal standard. Will it do so? Well, it allowed the patent for NiMH batteries to be held by an oil company consortium for the sole purpose of keeping it off the market! It won't force the manufacturers to do anything. They'd have to agree among themselves, and that's not likely.

My dryer is on a 220-v. 30-amp circuit. Drawing off half of that, I have 110 v. 30 amps for the 110-v. 25-amp charger my Xebra uses. For the Porsche I had a separate circuit run from the breaker box at 220 v. 50 amps. I will be able to charge the Leaf (if I can get one) from that, but not at the same time as the Porsche. I cannot dry clothes at the same time as the Xebra is charging. This is only a minor inconvenience.

Vehicle to grid (V2G) has been promoted since CalCars started talking about it with their Prius-Plus conversion. From a public policy perspective it makes sense. But who will want to add charge-discharge cycles to their battery? And who will want to risk not having juice when they need the car in an emergency? The only way people will accept this is if the power company pays them a HUGE amount, comparable not to the value of the electricity, but to the value of the power plant they will not have to build because of the peak-shaving that V2G provides. I highly doubt this will happen.

 

daniel, if you read the V2G link I posted, all of that is mentioned, and, they have even coined a term for it, "carbitrage", this is the point at which the electricty paid to the owner is enough and the vehicles battery chemistry has improved enough, that it is not too detrimental to consider allowing V2G.

The proponents and opponents of V2G both know it won't be worth a few pennies to EV owners, if you are going to have to replace an EV's pack sooner, costing $5-10K, so until the chemistry improves to the point where the charge cycling almost has no effect on battery longevity, the "carbatrage" point won't be reached..

Vehicle-to-grid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"carbitrage: This is a fusion of 'car' and 'arbitrage'. When the electric utility would like to buy power from the V2G network, it holds an auction. The car owners are able to define the parameters under which they will sell energy from their battery pack. Many factors would be considered when setting minimum sale price including the cost of the secondary fuel in a PHEV and battery cycle wear. When this minimum price is satisfied, it is deemed as meeting carbitrage. [9]"

and

"Future battery developments[10] may change the economic equation, making it advantageous to use newer high capacity and longer-lived batteries in BEV/PHEVs and in grid load balancing and as a large energy cache for renewable grid resources. Even if cycled daily, such batteries would only require replacement/recycling every 55 years or so"

 

You should look into neoprene seat covers - they are supposed to be waterproof. :madgrin:

 

Mitch: Thanks for the clarification. Has anyone done any calculations regarding the cost of all those batteries vs the cost of the additional power plants that V2G would render unnecessary?

My own feeling is that the "cost" of finding your car without sufficient charge when you need it, because of V2G depletion, would be greater than the payment for participating, unless they paid me more than it would cost them to install an equivalent amount of additional generating capacity.

I'd rather see us make our use of energy more efficient over all, and install alternative generating capacity. I know this need not be mutually exclusive with V2G, I'm just skeptical that the real cost of V2G would be less than increasing generating capacity based on such limitless renewable sources as sun and wind.

 

I suspect the size of the charger is a bigger problem than its weight. Not sure, though.

The Nissan Leaf "external charger" is not a charger. It's just a surge protector. I have no idea why it's not built in. Maybe size. Maybe just to place protection of both car and house wiring outside the car.

Cat Lovers Against the Bomb (calendars, bumper stickers, lapel pins, etc.) were invented and sold by Nebraskans for Peace. I see no mention of CLAB on their web site now. CLAB stuff was also sold by Northern Sun, but I don't see it there either. Maybe the people at NfP who were involved in the CLAB merchandise are no longer active, or maybe nowadays nukes are not a popular enough issue to generate enough sales to keep it up. It was a member of NfP many years ago who came up with the idea and drew the picture of a cat playing with a ball-of-yarn Earth.

 

Kgall, no VTG is strictly to "even out" power demands on the grid. No engines are run.

You simply allow the power utility to "call on your stored power" on your EV to smooth out temporary demand on the power grid. This might save them having to build additional generating capacity for peak demand. The way it would work would be that most vehicles are connected, for many hours per day, and if they are not needed, the energy could be supplied to the grid during those peak demand hours, then during off peak, the grid recharges the battery. Each user would set a schedule, so they could say when they would need the vehicle, and when they don't, so it could in theory be calculated when they could draw power from your car, and when they would have to start putting it back, to be ready for a typical morning commute. That is the theory of V2G, in practice it's not viable yet, as the extra charge/discharge cycles shorten the life of most of the existing battery technologys, so it would not yet be cost effective...

Also, all of those connected EV's might also offer a place to "store" energy from renewables such as Solar or Wind, as currently we really have no practical way to store that power.

 

The SAE has already determined a standard connector, J1772, for
multiple voltages. New designs will probably use it, and hopefully
it would be relatively easy to convert existing legacy stuff. Well,
until the 480V setup gets standardized...
.
_H*

 

I would not consider running my hybrid to make money powering the grid. I would consider running it to power the grid in case of power failure. Keeping emergency services lit, for instance. While I would expect to be reimbursed for that, it would not be to make money.

 

Reading the very informative post on this thread leaves me a bit overwhelmed. Obviously, y'all know a whole lot more about electricity that I do ... and I suspect, the vast majority of drivers. The beauty of gasoline is simplicity ... a standard nozzle, and the only decision is low test or high test .... and still some people put gasoline in diesel vehicles..... careless for sure, but it does occur.

I suspect that EV's will become universally acceptable only if they can be simple for the general public to use. Isn't that one reason Nissen is limiting sales to those areas where public charging can be provided (simplified).

Returning power to the grid is a great idea in concept ... but may be an idea the public would find difficult to grasp. Locally, the power company wants to install devices on the home meter where A/C compressors can be remotely cycled every 15 minutes during peak usage. It does not appear that it is being well received by the public.

I had honestly not considered that different battery chemistry might require different charging techniques. Most interesting!

 

Last time I gassed up the stinker, I decided to save time by using my card instead of paying inside with cash. I put the nozzle in the filler spout, lifted the thingamabob, pressed "Pay with card," swiped my card, and waited. Nothing happened. A voice from the intercom told me to start over. Still nothing. After five minutes of frustration I went inside, asked what was wrong, and was told to just go pump the gas and come back inside to pay. Apparently I had swiped my card too soon after pressing "Pay with card."

Simple??? No way!

Not only is a gasoline engine infinitely more complicated than an electric motor, but with my Zap Xebra, I just plug it in when I get home, and unplug it when I leave. FAR SIMPLER! And with the Xebra I never get gasoline on my hands.

 

daniel ..... you have taken my statement re the simplicity of pumping gasoline (in contrast with the complexity of electric charging stations, different battery chemistry, different voltages, different electrical recepticals et al ... which is what the dissusion was about) , and written about your credit card accounting malfunction ....... as if gasoline, and the complexities of the gasoline engine were the cause. Do you think credit card purchases at electric charging stations will be blissfully trouble free?

Then you concluded with the virtues of the Zebra ..... How many Zebra's are there on the road? Has anyone ever seen one other than daniel's? Personally, I never heard of a Zebra until I started reading PC, and you mention this amazing vehicle in every post.

 

I feel for Daniel, is is using a EV and sees how it DOES work, then comes online and hears a multitude of 'experts' claim what he KNOWS is wrong in his experience. My concerns with charging complexities was only to show that 'universal' chargers would be more complex than a charger designed for one model/electrical source, not to imply they were too complex to work at all.

Many here on Prius chat have to cope with uninformed hybrid myths, poor Daniel also has electric vehicle myths to debunk.

 

JimboPalmer - Actually, I appreciate your comments re charging complexities ... I never considered that viewpoint. I did not realize that different battery chemistry, and or voltages MIGHT require different plugs. In my world, for example, I have an RV ... when I pull into a RV camp, the only issue is amperage ... and I have an adaptor that I use for one, or I directly plug into the other. Every RV can use the same power source with an adaptor. Then my point .... every gasoline car can use the same service station pump .... the only decision is high or low test. Diesel users have it even easier.

That POV makes no mention of the credit card business; or the internal complexities of gasoline engines, my assertion is that the EV industry will need to find a convenient method to publically charge all EV's. I am confident that will occur in time. Daniel has more hands-on EV experience than anyone else contributing on CP, and that experience is a valuable resource.