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Nissan Leaf vs Prius

Discussion in 'Nissan/Infiniti Hybrids and EVs' started by DanCar, Apr 4, 2010.

  1. DanCar

    DanCar New Member

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    Yes, those of us who don't have an agenda understand the big addition. Thanks plenty.
     
  2. DanCar

    DanCar New Member

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    Your confused again. Cold weather maintains a batteries life and capacity. Very high temperatures are known to decrease the life of a battery. Cold temperatures have a temporary effect on the performance of a battery.
    Is everyone out to get you? Is there anyone you can trust?

    What is unlimited besides your confusion?

    Big dog would like us to believe his confusion rather than independent third party experts.
     
  3. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    You are most welcome.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk1ceWinU-E&feature=fvw]Mistaking Motion for Progress[/ame]
     
  4. bigdog1234

    bigdog1234 New Member

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    No, not confused. Just tried to run everything together.

    Meant to say - Decrease in capacity after 3-5 years of use, and then, when it's cold, and the battery is being drained by having to resitively heat the car, the range drops to well below the ideal range of 100 miles.

    The point being - people will initially buy this car with the expactation that they will get 50-100 mile range. For many, that will fit their commuting requirments. BUT, after the capacity drops, and high energy demands are put on the battery (such as in the Winter), the range is not going to be 100 miles, and maybe not even 50 miles.


    So you are a mind reader and analyst now?

    As an engineer, I'll trust my own knowledge and calculations. That said, I suspect I know a LOT more about battery technology than you.
     
  5. DanCar

    DanCar New Member

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    Do you have an online source for this? I would like to use the data elsewhere. Thanks, Daniel
     
  6. DanCar

    DanCar New Member

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    What kind of engineer? I'm a software engineer at a semi conductor company. I once was a dealer for electric scooters, of which batteries is the key component. I've also contributed to many wikipedia articles related to electric vehicles, physics, and more. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Daniel.Cardenas
     
  7. bigdog1234

    bigdog1234 New Member

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    I'm sorry, but I'm simply NOT going to believe anyone's forecast for 10 years from now. Been burned too many times believing such longterm forecasts - no matter what the forecase is on. Too may variables.
     
  8. bigdog1234

    bigdog1234 New Member

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    LOL. Economy of scale works great (in lowering prices) if one is not limited by the resource needed to manufacture whatever it is you are manufacturing.

    The "reality is" - Replacement cost for just the battery on the Leaf is over $10K.

    The "reality is" - Prices will remain high, in the time frame most Leaf owners will need to replace their battery.
     
  9. bigdog1234

    bigdog1234 New Member

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    LOL. And just how long do you think folks have been actively research to improve the Lithium chemistry/batteries.

    More likely you will see a Lithium substitute in batteries. What that will be, or when that will be, or what the price will be...is anybody's guess?
     
  10. robbyr2

    robbyr2 New Member

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    Lithium is not particularly rare- 230 billion metric tonnes or about 500 trillion pounds in seawater. If the demand is there, the supply will increase.

    So, if you're worried about the battery- lease the LEAF.
     
  11. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

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    bigdog would not be caught dead in a Leaf, how would that look to his employor, who is paying him to spread FUD here?
     
  12. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    Since you refuse to believe any forecast, what possible method are you using to 'know' that lithium will increase in price? Ouija board? Entrails of a goat? Time travel? The voices in your head tell you?

    Mere experts and past performance are not interesting to you, I wait with bated breath (but not baited breath) for your source of infallibility.
     
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  13. bigdog1234

    bigdog1234 New Member

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    FUD? Hardly.

    The USGS would say something different. Ever heard of them? LOL.

    Keep telling yourselves (collectively) there will be no Li shortage/battery cost issues, etc. We have a saying where I use to work - "It's not a lie if you believe it to be true". So keep telling yourselves there is no problem, and there won't be any problems. You might actually believe your lie, if you say it long and loud enough. LOL. :D

    While I may someday own a Leaf myself, I'm NOT foolish enough (like some of you), to believe there won't be important issues/problems down the road. As such, I think I'll sit on the sideline waiting for all these issues to unfold, and perhaps, eventually get resolved? Who knows? But in the meantime, I have zero intention of wanting to be the first on my block to find out what these problems might be? I'll leave that to you fools.

    Minerals at Risk and for Emerging Technologies

    07-Apr-2010@14:04

    "Mineral suppliers are not able to expand output, through discovery and development of new mines and expansion of existing mines, at a rate that can satisfy demand. Likewise, new technologies for increasing energy efficiency, sequestering and reducing carbon dioxide emissions, and for improving telecommunications and computer networks will require extensive use of certain minerals and metals, generally recovered as byproducts of other mineral production, at rates well above traditional levels of supply. Examples include lithium for a new generation of hybrid car batteries and tellurium for solar power cells. With the variety of new technologies being pursued, investors and consumers need to be aware of any potential short- and long-term impediments to the supply of necessary mineral raw materials. In the case of lithium, rising lithium prices would, over the long run, signal to the market the relative scarcity of lithium, but this process could be shortcut by a sober assessment of known resources and prospects for adding to those resources - an assessment that might lead to a shift to a battery technology that uses more abundant resources."



    ...pretty much what I've been saying all along. But hey, why believe the USGS. :rolleyes: Potentially no scarcity? What a vivid imagination you all have.

    Enjoy all the forecasts and predictions coming form organizations/companies that indirectly, or directly have a VESTED interest in predicting a rosy future.

    On that note, I'm done. This topic has been beaten to death, and there really is nothing more to add. Believe what you want. I'll continue to drive my G3 Prius for many years to come with no worries that my battery might fail, or that my capacity has dropped so much, that I may not make it back home from work.

    But rest assured - I'll be sure to waive as I drive by all the Leaf's I see along the side of the road waiting for a tow back to where they can "charge up".

    Keep it real, homies! :rockon:
     
  14. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

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    I hope your BO (Big Oil) buddies paid you enough to spread your FUD here, none of us believe it, and we are all signing up for the Leaf $99 reservations, and tommorow we will plunk down our deposits to secure our place in line.

    Good luck with the spreading of the FUD.

    oh yeah, here is a small PDF about some testing that was done on some A123 LiIo cells, showing they have about a 15 year life (5400 cycles), and at the end of that life they are still holding %80 of their charge.
     

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  15. bedrock8x

    bedrock8x Senior Member

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    I have done extended research of lithium batteries for life expectancy and performance characteristics. The mean time of shelve life is about 3 years. By definition, 50% of lithium batteries will need replacement after 3 years of usage.

    If the Leaf battery's manufacturing cost is $10K with $150 of lithium in it, even the cost of lithium drop to $50, it will not make a dent to the $10K price.

     
  16. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

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    wow, if that where true, Nissan will take a huge hit, since the battery is supposed to have a 60 month warranty. Look at the study I posted above. 5400 cycles (15 year life), down to %80 capacity.
     
  17. robbyr2

    robbyr2 New Member

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    The figure of 4 billion plus pounds of lithium or 400 million LEAF batteries did come from the very same USGS. Obviously, that is insufficient to replace all ICE vehicles on the planet with electric vehicles. But its a good start. I believe they are providing a reasonable, conservative assessment as they should.

    I'm perfectly happy with my Prius as a stopgap until electric vehicles take over. But I always saw it as a bridge to an electric future. It may be a century or half a century. I doubt I see it in my lifetime. But battery technology WILL improve.
     
  18. bedrock8x

    bedrock8x Senior Member

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    I still have no confirmed source about the Leaf's warranty period.
    I have posted the warranty period question on the Leaf's web site and got no reply.
    If it is 5 years, then Nissan is taken a risk to introduce the Leaf.

     
  19. robbyr2

    robbyr2 New Member

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    Nissan claims the laminated lithium ion will last 5-10 years. If you think that may be self-interesting exaggeration, then the 3 year lease on the LEAF should work just fine for you.
     
  20. DanCar

    DanCar New Member

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    Please tell us more about your extended research. Did your research tell you that different li-ion battery chemistries behave differently and a blanket statement like that is not valid? What li-ion chemistry is the Leaf using? Have you studied this particular chemistry?

    Lithium-ion battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Here is a quote from wikipedia that you might find interesting:

    Depending on the choice of material for the anode, cathode, and electrolyte, the voltage, capacity, life, and safety of a lithium-ion battery can change dramatically.

    The batteries with problems after 3 years are cobalt-oxide based. The leaf batteries are manganese chemistry. Version 2 of the leaf batteries with double the range are using a lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide cathode. http://electric-vehicles-cars-bikes.blogspot.com/2009/11/nissan-long-range-battery-may-be-ready.html

    Nissan publicizes their battery chemistry as having long life: http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/INTRODUCTION/DETAILS/LI-ION-EV/