Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers...

IASCA sound quality winner!

I got my Focal 165KP speakers installed in the front of my JBL prius, powered by a Rockford Fosgate T8004 amp fed by the rear JBL amp outputs through a Navone NE-774V converter. I installed 50 square feet of B-Quiet ultimate on the front doors alone, which was overkill. I put in 2 layers on inside of outside sheet metal, and 2 layers on the inside of the inside sheet metal, more near the woofers. I haven't yet gotten around to replacing the rear speakers or doing B-quiet on the rears, but the factory rear drivers are now running off the T8004 amp as well.

I have been spending so much time on this that I thought it would be fun and informative to enter it into a sound quality competition. I drove down to Gardena, CA this weekend and entered in the IASCA soundoff, in rookie street sound quality class. I would have loved to do this kind of thing in my younger years and figured that at 35 I would be the grandfather figure, but it turned out there were plenty of folks my age there.

There were four competitors in that class, and I am proud to say I got first prize with 192 points out of 250 possible. I really am happy with the sound quality at this point; if I hadn't already ordered the rear speaker replacements I might stop here. But I've got another 50 feet of B quiet to install, and I'm still experimenting with getting the right sound source (pre or post JBL amp, front or back, etc).

What surprised me was that I did decently on the SPL part of the competition... with no subwoofer I got 131.8 db! That's largely due to the incredible power of the T8004 amp; it's rated very conservatively at 50 WPC into 4 ohms (times 4 channels), but the "birthsheet" shows the factory tested my particular amp at 163 WPC into 4 ohms. The way the SQ competition is set up you need to hit 100 db to get any points for SPL, but 135db gives you the max points for SPL. So it was pretty impressive that I came that close to getting the max points in SPL.

In sound quality I received mostly scores of 6-7 out of 10 in the various categories, as judged by a human listener. The main constructive criticism the judge had was that I "need to work on the subwoofer"... I didn't tell him I didn't have one The other thing he pointed out is that the center soundstaging wasn't very good... sounds that are supposed to sound like they are close to the center instead come from the right or left.

I personally don't hear soundstaging very well... I have a hearing loss in my left ear from a freak weight lifting accident a year and a half ago that caused my cochlear fluid to leak out. My brain has been rewiring itself since then so that I hear better and better over time even though I don't get much signal from the left ear at all. Part of why I'm obsessing over the audio system is that only recently has my hearing gotten back to the point where I'm really enjoying music again and so it makes me very happy to hear good sound. Anyway at this point I hear imaging okay and frequency response well but not soundstaging.

I do have the center speaker disconnected... maybe JBL was onto something with that center speaker. On the other hand it's probably not something to make too much of... lots of guys who compete add special center speakers just to get points in that category so that's probably what the judge was listening for. I tend to think the overall imaging issues the center causes are not worth the soundstaging advantages.

They did a RTA (real time analysis, where they show the frequency response graphically from a microphone inside while pink noise plays). One of the main reasons I went was to get this... a proper calibrated RTA system costs thousands of dollars so the $40 entry fee was a bargain. Anyway, the RTA results were flatter than I would have guessed given the non-flat output of the JBL amp. There were no major issues with the RTA results, which was encouraging. I'll post more on that later.

Overall I'm starting to think that maybe JBL did a good job of having their amp eq compensate for psychoacoustics and cabin acoustics (e.g. the midrange hump in JBL amp output actually makes some sense because that is the frequency range that gets muffled by the woofer firing into your feet). Toyota probably just gave them too little budget for the speakers themselves, so they ended up putting in mediocre drivers, which is unfortunate given the difficulty of replacing them.

 

Wow, that's pretty cool. I've had very little time to devote to this lately, but I have done several hours of listening to the system with and without the center speaker, and have come to the same conclusion as your judge: without the center speaker, the soundstage is all left and right. Yet with the center connected, it's kind of narrow and is tonally "honky". This is most noticeable with the human voice. The center speaker is also quite loud for its proximity to the front seats.

With the stock speakers I'm not really sure which way I find less objectionable. If I were going to keep the whole system stock, I'd probably keep the center and attenuate its volume a little, but since I'm going to change the front door speakers, and add a sub, I'll wait to make a final decision on the center.

Your comment about Toyota/JBL leaving too little in the budget for drivers is likely true (and true for many other cars too), but since enthusiasts will always change the speakers anyway, it's forgivable. My bigger gripe is the really poor choice of speaker location, and orientation. It's good to hear that you did well in spite of it.

I'm really interested in your RTA results, I think it would be worthy of its own thread.

When you did the B-Quiet on the doors did you cover all of the open areas on the inner metal i.e. over top of the vapor barrier, or did you remove the barrier, do the metal, and then replace the barrier over top?

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Hi Wilco. I'm actually relatively happy with the factory speaker positions. The one nice thing is that they are oriented such that the driver gets direct sound from the passenger side woofer and tweeter, while getting indirect sound from the driver side woofer and tweeter. That tends to equalize the levels so that right and left are more equal in amplitude, leading to better stereo. I do notice the unlike in some other cars I've been in, the right and left do sound similar amplitude. Of course those differences do also result in timbre mismatches between right and left, but in practice it seems to work well. I still can't get over what a difference it made to swap the speakers out. The best budget upgrade I think would be to disconnect the rear speakers, and install a pair of $300-500 ebay price front aftermarket components (I'd suggest focal), driven off the rear amp channel.


As far as the B-quiet, I totally covered the inside and outside sheet metal pieces, in order to try and seal it up as much as possible. The only holes I left open were the ones where the clips go in to hold the plastic trim in place. I removed the vapor barrier plastic and threw it away. It was a little tricky doing the 3-d shaping of the B-quiet to bulge towards the outside of the car in the openings where the safety foam blocks on the interior plastic trim fit in the holes. But doable. I'll have pictures up eventually. I'm not totally sure that was the right way to go... the bass does sound a bit more constrained, whereas when the holes were open it sounded more "airy" and free. But I think since I don't have a subwoofer sealing it up is the way to go so that I can crank up the low bass and not overexcurse the speakers.

I put up the picture of my RTA results at:

http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/priusaudi..._2005_07_31.JPG

Now that I have a chance to inspect, it's not as great as I had thought. I originally thought that each row of LEDs was one db, but it looks like the dial indicates that each row of LEDs is four db. The guy who did the RTAs said that lots of cars show the dip around 500 Hz and that sometimes it's just a measurement artifact from where they place the microphone. Also keep in mind that this is a freeze frame... the actual measurement was jumping 1 or even 2 rows up and down on the peaks and valleys. And this is only for one particular microphone position, so isn't necessarily something to read too much into.

You can see that I used the Rockford Punch bass control to boost the bass at about 45Hz.

What I'm learning again by this experience is that frequency response isn't necessarily the be all and end all. Like I say the difference in sound quality between the aftermarket and factory speakers is stunning, even though they probably measure about the same in terms of frequency response. Factors like impulse response, decay, woofer cone "breakup" and other distortions are likely the differences.

I also have done a little listening to the system sourced by a portable CD player (flat response rather than the JBL amp EQ) and although it definitely puts out more and better low bass, I'm actually leaning towards preferring the sound from the JBL amp eq. It's still too early for me to draw any conclusions, but I certainly didn't find the flat response to be clearly superior.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Congrats Tom! Been wondering how your audio mods have been going. So you basically made a subwoofer enclosure out of b-quiet in the doors? Looks like it worked well looking at your RTA graph - just some tuning down of that bass now. I've noticed a lot of sound leaking out from my stock doors. You b-quiet installation really cut that down?

You could also check out the RTA graphs I put up in LC6 thread based off stock speakers.

I saw the 500Hz dip; even when I moved the mic around a bit. The dip sure wasn't coming from the speakers though.

Now you got me curious. Lemme see what the RTA looks like with the center speaker connected.

[edit]
Here you go without (aqua) and with (lime green) center in stock JBL system; kenwood dialed all the way down. Ignore the weirdness below 500Hz. I believe that was because I moved the mic. Mic is located on left shoulder of passenger seat. Graphing set for average of 100 samples.

Now this graph will change slightly depending on positioning, but you get the general idea here. Looks like center speaker just slightly fills out the sound without over-emphasizing, but we like it OUT because it gets rid of that 800Hz peak. I'll try listening to it over the week to see if I like it dulling the stereo imaging or not.

Of course I have EQ settings that flatten this out more (with emphasis for some bass to counter road noise), but that 630Hz peak is difficult to kill. I have touched a Cleansweep last week , but I'm going to focus on tint first.

Gardena huh? That's pretty close to drive to. Maybe I'll see you at one of the Prius meets, and we can compare the sound system mods.

I'm also pondering waving a mic around while driving to locate where the major noises are coming from and then start the sound-dampening there. Probably best with two people in the car or something.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

So I bought the 6010cs speakers for my JBL Prius. I have everything apart in my garage as we speak and I find out that the metal mounting plate that comes with the set doesn't fit anything. There is a plastic ring with the speaker cover that only has pass thru holes for the 4 speaker screws. THe metal mounting plates included almost fit into the hole in the door. I removed the riveted original mount. At first I thought I screwed up, but there really isn't anywhere on this or on the car to mount the speakers. Do I need an addtional adaper to make this work? I don't have the plastic mounting plate I've seen included with the 2-way Infinities. I have two sets of speakers and they both only include this smallish mounting plate. Anyone have any ideas??? Thanks

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Uh, yeah. Go back five posts, read it, and look at the pretty pictures.

And don't be so lazy. All you had to do is go back one page and there's the answer, complete with picture.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

FredWB,

Are you saying the infinity speakers DON'T come with the plastic adaptor bracket? Did you get yours new (unopened)? I bought a pair online (new, being delivered tomorrow), and would like to know if they come with the adaptor so I can go out and buy the adaptors today if necessary. Infinity's webpage doesn't seem to say if they come with the adaptor.

Priusenvy,

Where (physically) did you install the crossover for the rear speakers? I'd like to know this before I actually begin the installation.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

My understanding is that the 6010cs should have come with the Intermount III. The pair I bought on eBay did not come with them (supposedly new-in-box). I asked the seller where they were but didn't get a response. I also recently purchased a pair of 6012i 2-way coax speakers for my Jeep at the local Fry's Electronics, and they didn't have the Intermount III brackets either (again, supposedly NIB, but you never know with Fry's).

To be safe, I'd plan on them not being in the box. If you buy a pair of adapters and end up not using them, you can probably sell them to someone else on this forum for the price you paid. I bought my Scosche adapters online and they Fedex'd them to me and I had them in a couple days.

There's plenty of empty space in the door panel near the speaker. I used double-sided foam tape to mount on the door them near the speaker. Just look at the door panel and you can see where there will be space.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Hey, lighten up. The point of desperation post is that the pretty picture was incorrect in my case and that plastic adaptor was not in either set of speakers that I received. I'm saying that the adaptors that came with the 6010CS did not come with anything but the std steel rings. THEY DO NOT FIT AS IS..PERIOD!! The steel rings almost fall into the hole in the door once you remove the riveted plastic speaker mount as you well know.

I'm SO LAZY that after reading and copying everything in site for days and working on this I drove over to Circuit City at 8PM to find out that is all that comes with this kit. They may have another adaptor that they will sell you that will work but the install shop was closed. So after looking at it late last night I came up with another option. Don't take out the riveted speaker mount, leave it where it is. Remove the std speaker. You can then bend down the raised edge on the Infinity adaptor plate just in the area where the std speaker screw mounts are. Then with a little bit of work using a file, the adaptor will just fit within the four screws. Once screwed down the adaptor is held snuggly by the screw heads. Then you can drill a hole thru the plastic speaker mount for the wires and the speaker mounts right up to the std speaker plate. I just finished up tonight.

It's definitely an improvement but I'm going to add the back ones this weekend and is if it gets any better. If I had the adaptors as shown I would not have sought anyones additional help. I appreciate all the info everyone here has taken the time to compile and document. I don't appreciate being called lazy when nothing in my post was inaccurate. I think it's important that people know that this additional adaptors are not in all the kits and should be purchased in advance so you don't find yourself with your car in pieces, 11AM the night before work and no way to patch it together by morning.

 

tmorrowus and NuShrike-

As with all things audio - and especially car audio - it's always a compromise. The low-door mounted drivers reduce the side-bias, but it's partially at the expense of midrange, hence the JBL amp EQing (as Tom noted above). Actually, my biggest gripe with the speaker locations is that the tweeters are too far from the woofers. Audio/speaker building textbooks generally say that a hallmark of a good speaker system is when the speakers "disappear", and sounds appear to be coming from locations other than the drivers themselves. In the Prius I find that I'm constantly noticing sounds that are localized on individual speakers.

I sat in the driveway the other night and listened to a few discs without the center speaker connected, and faded to the fronts only. I found that the drivers don't blend well at all, and that it was easy to pinpoint which sounds were coming from which drivers. Even sounds that were mixed dead center and dry, like a cappella singing, or spoken word (not things I would normally listen to, but good tools for diagnosis) sounded like left + right instead of out in front. Additionally, sounds that require a combination of tweet/woof to cover their whole freq range (a snare drum for instance) are poorly reproduced. I suspect JBL/Toyota noticed these things too, and decided to add the center speaker as a band-aid (both for center image, and frequency band support). Unfortunately, they overdid the volume, and under-did the quality of the center driver... or they could've made it TWO centers... not actually in the center :mrgreen: oh well.

NS quote: Looks like center speaker just slightly fills out the sound without over-emphasizing, but we like it OUT because it gets rid of that 800Hz peak.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. A boost at 800Hz tends to make sounds (especially vocals) "honky", or like they're coming out of a horn. I do like the tonality better with the center disconnected. As far as imaging goes (and keep in mind I still have the stock system), I'd say it's 60/40 for me. I lean toward liking it better with the center disconnected for the clarity, but there is definitely a hole in the soundstage.

Tom, you are so right when you say, "The best budget upgrade I think would be to disconnect the rear speakers, and install a pair of $300-500 ebay price front aftermarket components (I'd suggest focal), driven off the rear amp channel", and "Factors like impulse response, decay, woofer cone "breakup" and other distortions are likely the differences". Plus you are getting the advantage of a superior crossover design. My hope is that when I install better drivers/crossovers (this weekend), the above issues will be somewhat addressed.

A car is a big, odd-shaped, hard/soft enclosure, and because car speaker enclosures are often the doors, i.e. not designed for sound quality, I tend to like microphone tests over electrical tests - regardless of their relative levels of accuracy. That's why I was curious about your (Tom) RTA, to see how it compared to your dummy-load testing of the JBL amp. I'd say pretty similar, except for the dip at 2.5K (which from a listener standpoint is actually fine). Humans hear particularly well in the mid and upper midrange. The human voice and a lot of instruments produce sound in this frequency range - all competing for space in the music. Plus some sounds that are better in smaller doses, like electric guitar "attack", presence and harmonics, electric bass "string noise" and finger slides, kick drum "attack" or "slap", etc. occur at or near 2.5KHz. It's the ISO frequency that is usually associated with listener fatigue, so a little dip there - especially in a car - may not be a bad thing.

It's interesting that each of your RTA results are a little different. It could be in part due to the mics used, but I'll venture a guess that you're seeing speaker differences there too. I can't recall which speakers you went for NuShrike...?

 

Fred,

Sorry to hear that you didn't get the double set of install rings. Others here have stated that they were in the box. When I listened to the Infinitys in the store, I specifically asked the sales-dude about them, and he indicated that they were included. I didn't end up buying the Infinitys, so I can't give a definitive answer beyond that.

If you're the sort who is good with tools, a better, permanent solution would be to drill out the rivets and remove the plastic speaker mount, and make one from MDF or HDF or marine grade plywood. I know it seems weird to put wood in a car, but it is better than plastic for both rigidity, and potential rattling.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Fred,

What Priusenvy was saying was that he did not get the plastic adaptor, and he explained that in a previous post, and explained what adaptor he used. That being said, I agree his response to you could use some lightening up.

Wilco,

I'm pretty sure no one has stated that they did get a plastic adaptor when buying the Infinitys.... Priusenvy stated that he thought they were supposed to be included.

 

krooster,

It's not my intent to argue with you here, but the guy who started the current speaker replacement topic said that he did get everything needed for the install in the box. Here is the thread (first post):

http://priuschat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9542

After reading that thread I went down to the local Infinity dealer to listen to the Kappas and Refs. I specifically asked the salesperson about the mounting rings and was told that two sets were included, and that one of the two sizes would fit. Based on that info, I stated (previously in this thread) that the rings were included. In retrospect, I shouldn't have said anything without firsthand knowledge.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Wilco,

No problem, if I said something incorrect I would want to be corrected

Although, Sparky bought the Kappa series speakers.... lately the threads have been concerning the Reference series (which is what I bought). I would find it incredibly odd for Infinity to include the adaptors with the Kappa series and NOT with the Reference series, so I see your point.

By the way, could you tell any difference between the Reference and the Kappas? I was wondering if they were really worth the extra money, they're like $100 more expensive per pair from what I've seen. I had MBQuart speakers in my last car.... man do I miss those... but I'm not an audiophile by any means.

EDIT: I notice in my previous post where I said no one claimed to get the adaptors when buying the Infinitys, I didn't specify "Reference" series. So, I am definitively in the wrong here :mrgreen:

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Yeah, there was definitely a difference between the Kappa and Reference.

The Refs are very efficient, so they play louder at the same volume than the Kappas - so when you listen to both be sure to adjust the volume for a fair comparison. I found the Refs to be a little on the bright side, with a slightly forward midrange. Bass extension was OK. To my ear, the Kappas had a more even response, with better bass extension. The Kappa tweeters are more accurate than the Refs, but I'm not keen on metal domes in cars - I'll give up a little accuracy to avoid ear fatigue (in my car anyway). My bottom line is that the Refs are good for their price, the Kappas are better - but you'll have to decide if they are worth the extra $$.

The same shop had MBQuarts as well. The Quarts that were similar in price to the Refs (can't remember the model) sounded better than the Refs IMO. The mid was pulled back a bit in comparison, and the tweeters seemed to be better at reproducing fine details (although overall the Quarts weren't as bright). My friend, however, preferred the Infinitys, so you'll have to let your own ears/wallet decide.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Wilco, good post.

I hear you about the speaker locations being far from the idea point sources, with the tweeters so far from the mids. I think that's why some of the Lexus vehicles have midranges on the dashboard close to the tweeters, so that the critical voice frequencies come from the same spatial location. Might have been nice if Toyota had done the same, but then again summing three ways for aftermarket would be even more of a hassle. You can always put your tweeters in coax mounts by the woofers, but the orientation of the woofers isn't very good for tweeters, which would fire into people's feet. It would have been nice if they oriented the woofers more towards the occupants.

Raising the crossover frequency can help. The factory system is crossed over at approx 2.4Khz, while my Focals are crossed over at 3.5KHz. This allows the critical voice bands (up to about 4K) to mostly come from the single midrange.

Another thing that might help would be time alignment. I'm considering getting an Alpine PXA-H701 equalizer, which also has crossovers and time alignment. By adding more amps and crossing over at say 4K (using 30db/octave crossovers to avoid breakup) with time alignment, this issue might really be improved. Of course it's not clear if the cost justifies small improvements like that.

The left/right, no center issue isn't a problem for me... with my hearing loss in the left ear it actually improves stereo for me I think.

I've been doing some "simulated RTA", playing test tones of all frequencies, and measuring the output with a Mitey Mike II (accurate to within 1 or 2 db) hooked up to my new toy, the Fluke 189 multimeter. I then plot the results on my computer and get a 1/3 octave response graph. I am not ready to share the results yet since I'm still getting used to the system and troubleshooting the measurement process, but I will say there is quite a bit of variance in the shapes of the response graphs depending on measurement position and even successive trials. I do see the same peaks as the voltage measurements indicate, but they don't seem to be as severe. This is what leads me to think about adding EQ to get that extra bit of sound quality.

 

Actually, Tom's RTA was measured with pink noise which TrueAudio describes as:
Pink noise has equal energy per octave or fractional octave band. This means that a 1 octave wide band of pink noise centered around 100 Hz has the same energy (and loudness) as a 1 octave band centered around 1 kHz. The result is that pink noise appears flat when viewed on an RTA but appears to have a response that falls at 3 dB per octave when viewed on an FFT analyzer. To the ear, pink noise sounds “flat†with the lows and the highs sounding about equally loud. This closer match to what we hear is the reason audio engineers prefer to view live audio signals using an RTA or “constant fractional bandwidth†analyzer. Pink noise also provides for a more nearly constant signal to noise ratio when making audio measurements.

So any dipping can be heard. Are you thinking of specific frequency tones to the ears which would be characteristic of white noise, and hence the difference in audible sensitivity?

Tom, I've already went the individual test tones per frequency/octave route and it has been a unsatisfactory experience for me, which is why I tune only with pink noise now as your RTA at the competition was performed with. Specific frequency tone tuning would be more like white noise.

Ya, probably mic differences although I'm using this one which is probably not as good as Tom's, and with the stock JBL speakers + Kenwood SW-1 bass whereas Tom has upgraded speakers with an extra boost from his amp. Otherwise, giving some leeway for mic, positioning, and speakers difference, our RTAs are identical given it's the same JBL amp source. We both are at 'par' at the same points of 160Hz, 800Hz, 4KHz, with 500Hz being] ~-12dB.

TrueRTA is cool because it lets me establish a baseline 'flat' floor with everything on but audio at 0. This compensates for the mic noise floor, my breathing, laptop fan, Prius whines, etc.

My strategy currently is to see how much I can squeeze out of the stock system before I start throwing $$$ at it. So far, using the Kenwood] 180⁰ out of phase (of rear speakers) actually flattens ~90% of the extra bass boost without hurting the RTA. Then with the previous noted dips, the stock system sounds not bad. My end goal is Kappas or Refs. Now I know to watch out for mounting ring issues.

I'm mostly concerned with being able to hear every instrument that I can hear over headphones without obvious over/under emphasis. I don't really have an issue with center not being too center as I'm too busy driving usually.

I wonder if JBL also compensated for road noise with their EQ in the lower bands. My most satisfactory bass/sub-bass emphasis has been 3-5dB (1/2 of JBL's) above flat on the freeway.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

I just finished my "extended" installation of the 6010CS speakers. I say extended because the absence of the correct mounting ring turned this into a 3 day event. I bought them from millionbuy.com for $139.95 a set and I can say that I'm extremely happy with the results now. I used the existing plastic rings and just modified all the infinity metal rings so that the std speaker screws hold the metal rings in place. The tweeters fit a little bit loose so I used lots of hot meld glue to hold them in place. The croosover for the rear speakers can be tough to mount if you want the door panel to fit and not rattle. You just have to work around that. The metal clip for one of the front tweeter sails always dropped out of site, requiring the removal of the mirror (3 nuts) to retrieve it. I'm not sure how critical the orientation of the tweeters are but you can easily have them skewed from one another unless you take your time to align them in their housing.

The Infinity literature says that the plastic rings included can be used in many vehicles using 6 3/4" speaker locations or three-point mount frames (like the Prius). But there are only 4 holes that line up with the metal rings they give you and no real space to put 3 or four more holes for mounting. The plastic parts are barely larger in diameter than the metal plates and do not look anthing like what was posted eariler. So that's why I used the existing plastic rings which are actually pretty stiff and shouldn't cause any undo vibration. This time I didn't drill the rivets out in the back which made everything go quicker.

Before I installed the back speakers I was questioning if this was going to be worth the cost ($300) and effort. After I put the back speakers in today I can say it sure was worth it. I can hear much more depth, separation, and bass, not as good as my Magnaplanars at home of course, but about what I expected of a "premium system". It seems the back speaker replacement made all the difference.....or maybe just the combination. If you have a sqeaky, creaky, rattling dashboard like mine (the dealer has tried to fix it) you at least need a good stereo! So again, thanks to all who have been willing to share their knowledge and experience regarding this. Now I'm going to go drive my car and listen to my great stereo!!!

 

Fred congrats on getting to your system in shape. I just took out my JBL factory rear speakers and laying them side by side with the front factory speakers it's clear that the rears are significantly inferior... the cone has a cheaper surround, smaller paper diameter, smaller magnet. I think just turning the rears down is a good first step for someone who doesn't want to replace speakers.

Nushrike, I'm using 1/3 octave spaced warble tones in my "simulated RTA", which should give results similar to the audiocontrol RTA with pink noise. I can see how using pure single-frequency test tones would be unsatisfactory, since it would be more sensitive than the warble tones which cover a 1/3 octave or so frequency range, just like the filters inside the audiocontrol RTA. BTW, reading the manual of the Audiocontrol SA-3055 RTA:

http://mobileaudiocontrol.com/product.asp?...252&l1=5252&l2=

is highly recommended. They go into a lot of detail on how to effectively set graphic EQs.

I might eventually bring my computer up to the carport and try out TrueRTA or something similar. Thanks for the tip on that!

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Well I replaced the front tweeters with the tweeters from the Infinity 6010CS set... and I just have to say that even though I'm still using the stock rear tweeters, AND have the fader +3 to the rear (I don't like it when it distinctly sounds like the audio is coming from the front of me), there is a HUGE difference. I am incredibly glad that the JBL tweeters are such crap, because I had been led to believe from other posts on this site that I couldn't get this kind of sound without replacing the amp.

Can't wait to hear what it sounds like when I replace the rear tweeters and all the woofers.......