Misfires lead to weird state & Toronto Dealer

Hello Prius Chat! :rockon:

I have been a long time lurker and I have enjoyed many great posts. I have posted years ago and found the experience unpleasant but that was another website. Sooo here goes:wave:

Mine is a 2001, 230 000kms, replaced auxiliary battery within first 100 000kms, replaced plugs a couple times, I do my own oil changes and the last couple of transaxle oil changes I've done myself, replaced struts, I have been getting P0440/P0446 codes (emission issues) that I haven't fixed but I figured I could get to eventually.

I drove my 01 Sunday morning (June 6) in the rain after it had been sitting in the rain all night. We had driven about 60kms when my prius started with what seemed like misfires. After a few kms it got worse. I pulled over and I did pull some codes that indicated that all but one of the cylinders had misfired: P0301, P0303, P0304. There was also a code that indicated a fuel mixture problem P0171 (system too lean-fuel trim). I cleared the codes with my $50 scanner and then I started it up again. But I found that the engine would not stay running long enough to travel anywhere. Every time I started the car it would run for 15 seconds and then the cylinders seemed to misfire and the engine stalled. But no more codes were being set.

I decided to tow the vehicle to my closest relative where I could get some tools. I took out the plugs and 3 of them looked rough (soot & oil stains). I cleaned all of them and put them back in but to no effect. The car still ran for 15 secs and it then had a series of misfires that could lead to stalling if I didn't turn the car off. I started thinking of fuel problems: bad gas (water in the lines), fuel pump or filter... For the potential problem of water in the gas I had a couple bottles of gasline antifreeze and I put those into the tank.

The following morning (Mon June 7) I had it looked at by the village mechanic who has a more expensive OBDII reader but he didn't get much further except for trying to rule out obvious things (it has gas, oil). But no codes are being set. This mechanic thinks it might be a fuel problem and doesn't believe that the engine stalling is due to misfires. The engine runs for 15 secs and then stalls.

So I have it towed over a 100kms to the nearest toyota dealer which is in the Toronto area. The tow truck (flat bed) driver insisted that the car had to stay in Neutral during this tow. I let him do that but as the ride was somewhat lengthy I got more uncomfortable with this and told him to pull over. I went and put the car in Park and took the key out. When we arrived at the dealer the auxillary battery was dead and had to be boosted in order to get the car down off the flat bed.

Now the prius tech looks at the car and he can't pull anything off the car with his scanners either. The car is still reproducing the same symptoms where it runs for 15 secs and stalls. I mentioned that the other mechanic thought it might be the fuel pump so he has this fuel tester brought over which bypasses my fuel pump to supply the engine with fuel. Still no effect.

The tech works on it this morning (Tues June 8) but gets no further other than to point out to me the aux battery is low. I give him the okay to put a new one in because I know that a bad aux battery can give weird output. But I think he should be farther along than where he is. I think he should have contacted Toyota Canada's second line of support by now.

All this to say that I could use recommendations from others in the Toronto area. If you have faith in a dealership or even an independent who can tackle complicated 01-03 issues then please let me know!

Thanks for your attention,

John (back in Ottawa with my prius in Toronto)

 

I should have taken pictures of them as I had the camera out and was snapping pictures of the spark plugs. Unfortunately I don't remember if the coils were wet.

 

Thanks Bob. I've been talking with a few of the people I saw this week and one of them was the independent that I took the car too Monday morning. He told me that he did see a P3190 & P3191 on his scanner when I was going over what he did. But nothing since although the toyota mechanic might not be telling me every detail.

 

Wednesday Update: Misfires lead to weird state & Toronto Dealer

An interesting day with some comedy, drama and yet an official diagnosis lies still farther in the future. I hope this is entertaining because it is too long otherwise.

I traveled back to Ottawa Tues afternoon leaving my prius in Toronto.

I had told them to replace the aux battery Tues at 1:20pm and I assumed that if they didn't have it in stock then it would show up the next day. But when I called the service dept early the next morning they informed me that it takes 2 days for this specific dealer to get parts from the main Toronto warehouse. I called around different dealers and this is not a general Toronto rule i.e. some dealers can get a part even if they place the order by 4:00pm they will have the part by 8:00am the next day.

So the thought strikes me that since I have family in the Toronto area maybe I can impose on them to travel to the main warehouse and pick up the part and bring it to the dealer. So I call up the parts dept with this thought in mind and I tell them that I have an order placed for an aux battery.

This is where an Abott and Costello routine ensues where the parts person tells me the aux battery is ready. He tells me it has been here for a while and the phone number that I gave him didn't work. Since I never spoke to the parts dept I realize that this is for a different order. I try to tell him that but he continues with the details of the order "Yup an aux battery for a 2003 prius is right here, ready to be picked up". I begin to let the parts guy in on the fact that my aux battery hasn't arrived yet by saying that my prius is 2001 but then I realize this other guy can have my battery and I am anxious to get a diagnosis on my car so I shout "I will buy that battery!" .

The hybrid tech who was in charge of diagnosing my car must have been walking by at the time and I can hear him in the background: "Is that Mr John_in_Ottawa? Yeah I'm dealing with that..." That is when the parts guy starts telling me that the battery for the 2003 has a different part # and I should wait for my 2001 battery. There is a lot of back and forth between me and the parts guy but he says if I get someone to the part counter with a credit card he will sell me this aux battery. So I phone my Dad (retired and willing to help) who is 30 mins from this dealer and tell him to pick up this battery and bring some tools to install it as it is parked outside and this may prompt a quicker diagnosis.

About an hour after this conversation I get a call from the prius tech assigned to my vehicle. While talking to me he has Toyota Canada second level support on another phone. He tells me that his second level support suggests we shouldn't replace the aux battery at this time (maybe thinking of my costs). He tells me that they (2nd level support and him) are more concerned about the traction battery being low at this time and we should wait until a high voltage charger can be driven up to this dealer. He says that all this trying to start the car and the stalling has prevented the engine from recharging the batteries. So the 2nd level support will show up at this dealership on Friday with the high voltage charger AND that is when I can expect an accurate diagnosis.

This morning after I read Hobbit's reply to my initial post I agree that the traction battery is at risk (15 seconds of cranking- repeated ?? many times) but I don't feel that changing the aux battery will negatively affect the outcome. But since it is my Dad who would be doing the installation and not me I agreed to hold off on the aux replacement. Of course my Dad had already arrived at the dealership by the time I got a hold of him but this saves me from having to figure out how to repay my father for the cost of the battery.

I faxed the hybrid mechanic the 3 responses I received to my initial post (Hobbit, Jk450 and Bwilson4web) as I wanted him to understand that I had involved priuschat in this process.

I also opened up a complaint with Toyota Canada as I feel having to wait until Friday is unacceptable. Unfortunately the 2nd level support guys are not allowed to speak to the general public so I felt a complaint was the only way to put some pressure on them.

Thanks all for your attention.

John

 

Yes I have cleaned the MAF sensor a few times but I didn't during this last incident:shocked:. I have done the cleaning as per Bob's instructions in a link I can't post yet.

I still don't have that new aux battery. I'm hoping they can test one of the 2 that they have in the parts dept in my vehicle and let me know if it makes a difference. Then I'll buy one.

Your reference to the oil level makes me wonder if the independent might have overfilled the oil. The oil level had been at a lower level then I normally keep it and that may have prompted the independent to put more oil than required.

Thanks,
John

 

My spark plugs for those interested. 60 000 kms on them.

 

Thursday Update: ECM not sending pulse

Well the pace of the investigation seems to have quickened. I now don't have to wait until Friday as it seems the second level support actually showed up at the dealership yesterday and charged the traction battery.

They stayed late ($$) and found that the voltage levels in the coils was within spec (12V?) but that the ECM was not sending a pulse.

They are waiting for a new ECM to arrive after lunch today (June 10).

Of course I immediately think about getting my own ECM instead of taking the dealers. But the service advisor discourages this indicating that salvaged ECMs can not be re-used. I don't fully agree with him on that but I have to follow their lead as I don't want to kill their momentum in solving the problem as the car is too far from me.

I feel like they are now equipped with the necessary tools and expertise and the impulse to work hard to get my car out the door (in a drivable state) now where I didn't feel that way over the first 2 days.

 

Solved: Bad Gas

To update the situation the toyota dealership had it from Monday afternoon until Friday at noon (June 7 to 11). I think they worked on it steadily for 2 days (Wed & Thurs). On Friday morning they removed as much of the existing gas in the tank as they could and put in 30 L of new gas: they used premium gas. Mixing in this new gas allowed the car to start and run: with new plugs installed. The service manager said the gas that they pumped out was the worst gas he had seen.

Prior to paying I asked the mechanics to save a sample of the gas. When I finally had my car returned to me it would run okay once started but when starting it ran rough and sounded like it might stall. The gas sample was quite hazy at the bottom of the bottle (about 800 mL). If I shake the bottle the haziness will spread out around the rest of the liquid (pictures will be attached later).

I talked to someone who worked at a lab that analyzes gas/oil samples. This person had been called in to testify in bad gas cases and when I told him that the gas was hazy he said that it was water contamination that will cause the haziness. I asked if there was a way to test my sample with one from a gas station tank to confirm that this gas came from that station and he said his lab didn't have that capability. This technician did inform me that to get the full analysis from his lab would cost around $2000. A test for diesel would be around $200.

I called the gas station in the middle of nowhere that I filled up on Friday June 4. I told him that the mechanics found that my trouble was due to bad gas. The owner stated that he is proud of his reputation and uses the gas himself: even in his float plane. He stated that no other complaints had been received. He said I should call the headquarters of the company that he franchises from to proceed with a complaint.

I was able to get some information from the owner. This station had been filled up on May 29/30 and had then been refilled on June 5/6. Since I filled up at 9:00pm on Jun 4 I believe I would have been in the last quarter of the gas station's tank. He said that his station takes about 35000 (gallons) and that he normally shares transportation with another station as the tanker has about 50000.

Since water is heavier than gasoline it would have been more likely that I would have picked up bad gas from that last quarter of the station's tank. Plus my gas tank/bladder was almost empty so I had less good gas to mix with the bad gas (37L).

I ended up driving with no problems for about 170Kms after filling up before the misfires arrived in the middle of nowhere. This corresponds roughly to about 7L of gas at the rate I was burning at the time.

I changed the oil & filter today (June 22) as I think the local mechanic overfilled the oil. I put in new regular gas (87 octane) of about 11 L but it is still starting rough.

I cleaned the MAF sensor and used a brush on the throttle butterfly. When I looked passed the throttle there looked to be a fair amount of black debris in the intake manifold.

Any thoughts on the rough starting? My spouse has no confidence in the car now and is pushing for a replacement.


John (with prius but vexed)