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Camry Hybrid Rumors: A Focus on Performance More than Fuel E

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by thorn, Aug 4, 2005.

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  1. thorn

    thorn Member

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    From Green Car Congress:

    Camry Hybrid Rumors: A Focus on Performance More than Fuel Economy?

    3 August 2005

    Automakers appear to be taking two basic approaches to designing the current crop of hybrids. One is to optimize the design of the vehicle for fuel economy, using the additional power from the electric motor to support the graceful downsizing of the combustion engine (e.g., Prius, Insight).

    The other is to couple the same size engine used in a comparable conventional model with the electric motor. The result in this case is a vehicle that performs better than the conventional version, while offering a less significant improvement in fuel economy (e.g., Accord, Rx400h). Increasingly, the industry trend seems to be headed down this path.

    Toyota has yet to announce the specifications for the upcoming Camry hybrid (earlier post), but rumors are suggesting that the powertrain will be the same as that of the new Highlander hybrid (earlier post). (The conventional Highlander is based on the Camry platform, so there is logic to this.)

    The conventional Camry offers a choice of three engines: a 2.4-liter, 4-cylinder; a 3.0-liter, 6-cylinder; and the top-end 3.3-liter, 6-cylinder engine used in the Highlander hybrid. As an aside, the conventional Highlander also offers the 2.4-liter, 4-cylinder engine as an option.

    The Highlander hybrid powertrain uses a new version of Toyota’s Hybrid Synergy Drive powertrain specifically developed, according to Toyota, for the mid-size SUV class. An all-new high-speed electric motor operates at twice the speed (up to 12,500 RPM) and delivers more than twice the power (123 kW) as the motor used in the Prius, producing 268 peak combined horsepower with a standard towing capacity of 3,500 pounds.

    Toyota modified the high-end 3.3-liter V6 engine in the conventional Highlander to integrate more smoothly with the new hybrid system. Revisions include changes to calibrations of the Variable Valve Timing with intelligence (VVT-i) and Electronic Throttle Control (ETC) systems.

    If Toyota does use exactly the same powertrain in the Camry, clearly they will have opted for performance rather than maximizing fuel economy. With a combined 268 hp from the hybrid powertrain, such a Camry hybrid would be a screamer.

    A Camry hybrid based on the 4-cylinder engine would be more interesting from the point of view of minimizing fuel consumption.

    The direction Toyota takes with the Camry hybrid will be important—the car is the top-selling model in the US, racking up 426,990 units in 2004, and 259,611 units through the end of July this year (some 2% above the 2004 figures for the same period).

    We’ll just have to wait and see.

    Green Car Congress Web Site
     
    #1 thorn, Aug 4, 2005
  2. wstander

    wstander New Member

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    Some interesting points here:

    The Camry has the option of the same 3 conventional engines as does the Highlander; why can't Toyota make 2 levels of Camry Hybrid?

    Personally, I care not for the Camry as it is just a staid sedan with no redeeming virtues. A hybrid version, either a 4cyl or 6cyl would not entice me from the Prius; not for the mileage or prestige, but for the utility.
     
    #2 wstander, Aug 4, 2005
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    #3 john1701a, Aug 4, 2005
  4. thorn

    thorn Member

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    That's what I thought (4-cyl.) when I read his article. I thought I had remembered incorreclty. I emailed the Green Congress Guy, I'll see what he says. Maybe he has some inside info?
     
    #4 thorn, Aug 4, 2005
  5. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Toyota will have a 4-cylinder Camry Hybrid. Whether Toyota will offer a choice of 4 or 6 cylinder hybrid option remains to be seen.
     
    #5 Tideland Prius, Aug 4, 2005
  6. Danny

    Danny Admin/Founder
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    If it would be easy enough, they should make both hybrid engines. It would be a great market test to find out which type the public is looking for.

    Then they could offer both on the redesigned Highlander for the 2007 MY, too.
     
    #6 Danny, Aug 4, 2005
  7. tomdeimos

    tomdeimos New Member

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    Re: Camry Hybrid Rumors: A Focus on Performance More than Fu

    It makes some sense to emphasize power with regular models, since they can never excel at the mpg part!

    Hopefully they will make new versions of each car that are aerodynamic a bit more, and then the economy emphasis would make more sense. A standard sedan shape is just bad to start with.

    Vans and trucks could be made much more aerodynamic if they tried, but the cars wouldn't look like the regular models. But then Toyota now wants them to look different for hybrids!

    Ultimately they should just phase out all the gas only cars, and have hybrids with choices of pluggable, fuel type, and high power or highe economy to replace the current 4 cyl vs 6 cylinder choices. I'd like my next Prius to be pluggable and multi fuel at least like gasoline or hydrogen.
     
    #7 tomdeimos, Aug 4, 2005
  8. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    Re: Camry Hybrid Rumors: A Focus on Performance More than Fu

    *This* is why fuel efficiency and emissions must be tied to any perks for hybrids. To avoid "Silverado" syndrome.

    Now, I have my own ideas for incentives. The HOV thing is limited both by time and number. But I think something similar should be instituted for....speed.

    I think nationally the speed limit on the freeways should be limited to 55 mph to all EXCEPT hybrids. It is fact that driving 55 is more fuel efficient than driving 65.

    Now.....make the #1 lane, that is the far left lane of the regular freeway lanes more like the autoban. Maybe not unlimited speed, but say...70. However....only cars that get over 50 mpg freeway driving can use it. That would provide both an incentive for some commuters to buy a hybrid....so they can use the 70 lane instead of the 55 lanes and it would provide an incentive for auto manufacurers to provide more cars that can achieve 50 mpg on the freeway. They would have to meet the demand of the buyers.

    Yes, it would be tough to enforce. But the convolutions of the Energy Bill make it plain that the rebate/credit tax incentive route is getting way too unwieldy.
     
    #8 Godiva, Aug 4, 2005
  9. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Hmm, Danny. You know what's odd? On the Toyota Canada website, the Highlander is "no longer in production" and selecting the 2005 version means it's "available in limited quantities". Selecting MY 2006 gets you the Highlander Hybrid only.
     
    #9 Tideland Prius, Aug 4, 2005
  10. Danny

    Danny Admin/Founder
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    #10 Danny, Aug 4, 2005
  11. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Well technically, 05 is its 5th year so it should be redesigned for the 06MY. I'm guessing they're extending its life with the hybrid model.

    I like the Murano and the FT-SX looks really nice
     
    #11 Tideland Prius, Aug 4, 2005
  12. thorn

    thorn Member

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    He says he knows some insiders, they may have a 3.3 V6 version...Time will tell.
     
    #12 thorn, Aug 5, 2005
  13. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Of course there will be a Camry-Hybrid with a larger engine... LATER!

    That's how they will be able to end production of the non-hybrid version.
     
    #13 john1701a, Aug 5, 2005
  14. Orsino

    Orsino New Member

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    Re: Camry Hybrid Rumors: A Focus on Performance More than Fu

    I'd love a peek at the EPA estimates for the Camry's mpg, or even at Toyota's estimates of the estimates.
     
    #14 Orsino, Aug 6, 2005
  15. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Wanna hazard a guess?
     
    #15 Tideland Prius, Aug 7, 2005
  16. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    Re: Camry Hybrid Rumors: A Focus on Performance More than Fu

    I'll bite. I went to www.fueleconomy.gov and put in a plain old 2005 Camry.

    For the 4cyL it's 24/34 city/hwy and for the 6cyL it's 21/29 city/hwy.

    Emissions are 6.9 and 8.0 respectively.

    I'm guessing if they HSD the 4cyL the new mileage will be....45/38 city/hwy.

    I pulled those numbers out of the air. It's a guess. I wouldn't be surprised if they're higher when Toyota gets done hybridizing the Camry.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota shot for at least 50/40 for a 45 total or anything that would allow the Camry to qualify for the HOV lanes.
     
    #16 Godiva, Aug 7, 2005
  17. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    you mean 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder? lol. I was reading 4 litres and 6 litres. I was like.. they don't have 4000cc engines :).

    Hmm, that'll sound about right.
     
    #17 Tideland Prius, Aug 7, 2005
  18. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    Re: Camry Hybrid Rumors: A Focus on Performance More than Fu

    Um..yes.

    I fixed it.

    You can tell I'm *real* conversant with car terminology.

    But I still stand by my guesses.
     
    #18 Godiva, Aug 7, 2005
  19. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    hehe.

    If anything, I expect EPA figures to beat that and real life numbers (on average) to be around where you stated.
     
    #19 Tideland Prius, Aug 7, 2005
  20. Russ Yost

    Russ Yost New Member

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    What Toyota has "invented", with its efficient transmission coupling the ICE, the electric motor, and the generator, plus regenerative braking, is a signiricant improvement in the ICE's efficiency, which now can be applied in a variety of systems having various performance levels. This improved efficiency comes at an extra cost, which is a trade-off a buyer must make. The buyer also makes a "separate" cost/performance tradeoff.

    The concept of how Toyota's hybrid improves efficiency (by avoiding power production at low ICE rpm, where efficiency is poor) seems to be too complex for most potential buyers and marketers to understand!
     
    #20 Russ Yost, Aug 13, 2005
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