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Honda 'Fix' for Civic Hybrid Wrecks Gas Milage

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Prianista, Aug 15, 2010.

  1. Prianista

    Prianista Member

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    Honda 'Fix' for Civic Hybrid Wrecks Gas Mileage

    From the Los Angeles Times:

    Honda says its software patch, which limits the role of the electric motor while boosting use of the gasoline engine, prolongs battery life but 'is not a financial decision.'
     
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  2. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    Ugh, this is horrible headlines for Honda.
    I'm not too suprised though. When I started researching Hybrids I found several complaints about the IMA system and how it apparently would work marvelously but decline rapidly with the aging and failure of The Battery. I don't know how many posts I discovered that started..." I loved my Hybrid Civic until....." and the story was always about a rapid decline in the performance of the battery and the hybrid benefit of gas mileage.

    Outside of a debate about the merits or flaws of IMA, this is horrible for Honda, Toyota or anyone trying to promote Hybrids. Because a lot of newbies or unfamiliar don't know or bother to know the differences between what is called a Hybrid. All they see or hear or read is Hybrid-Failing Batteries-declining gas mileage and phrases like "Why Did I get a hybrid?".

    I hate to see or read articles like that.
     
  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Re: Honda 'Fix' for Civic Hybrid Wrecks Gas Mileage

    Wow. If that isn't bad enough, now the EPA is investigating to see if the smog output is equally nasty ... which can bring hefty fines & recalls. Sorry to hear it.

    .
     
  4. Colonel Ronson

    Colonel Ronson New Member

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    despite the crap hybrid system honda and other car makers use (the Electric assists Gas Engine design not the Gas Engine assists Electric Toyota uses), it still has better overall mileage. Imagine if everyone in america drove a hybrid, man, the middle east would become bankrupt, terrorists would run out of money, and the planet probably wouldn't try to purge the human race in 2012.

    But i agree, the hybrid system of Honda is garbage. They brought the first hybrid to america but they got lazy and complacent and didn't further the technology and probably gave up developing hybrids as evident by them discontinuing the accord hybrid. . While Toyota and Lexus has an expanding lineup, Honda still sells 2 measily hybrids, an insight and a civic hybrid. Both get the same mileage, you just pick the one which is less sore to your eyes.
     
  5. Erikon

    Erikon Active Member

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    Wow! Does the Insight suffer from this problem too? I don't know how much the Civic and Insight share in terms of components.
     
  6. Colonel Ronson

    Colonel Ronson New Member

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    the IMA system in the insight is more pathetic than the one in the civic hybrid. For one thing, the system is designed to keep the engine running even when your idle to keep the A/c running. The civic hybrid allows the a/c to run while the engine is stopped.
     
  7. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Try telling that to some Honda fanboys/Toyota bashers who have the Insight II. :rolleyes:
    Well, it's not so much a function of the IMA system but rather Honda chose to omit the electrically driven AC compressor from the Insight II that they added on the HCH a few years ago.
     
  8. Colonel Ronson

    Colonel Ronson New Member

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    I love for them to explain the insights lack of a: smart key, CRUISE CONTROL, 6 speaker audio on base package, larger cargo capacity, Dynamic Radar Cruise Control, Intelligent Parking Assist, Solar Roof, higher mileage, a/c that runs when you come to a stop and the engine shuts off... Man i got a whole list of these. thats what i love about fanboys, they are blind to the truth lol
     
  9. Erikon

    Erikon Active Member

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    Well, we can be quite the Prius fanboys on occasion, to be honest! I personally don't hate the Insight, there are things about it that made me think long and hard before I settled on the Prius! I did my test drives in late Fall, though, so the AC thing didn't even occur to me till I read about it long after I bought the Prius... Lol!
     
  10. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    The above is what stuck in my mind. The battery started to fail after 40k miles! And rather than replace it the dealers updated the software to pretty much switch off the battery.

    If true it sounds a cheap trick. :(
     
  11. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    A very interesting story. There were complaints about the second-generation Civic hybrid battery at least one year ago:
    Civic Hybrid Battery IMA Problems | Hybrid Cars

    If Honda can't deliver the promised performance and mpg on the second-generation Civic hybrid, they'd might as well exit the hybrid vehicle business.
     
  12. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    Yes, but I don't think it has too much to do with being a Prius Fanboy or hating the Insight. Bad headlines for Honda Hybrids are bad headlines for all hybrids. I champion Toyota's HSD over IMA, if that's being a fanboy so be it, but I'd like Honda to be as succesful as possible.

    I have friends that I debate the merits of Hybrids and alternative automobiles with, and when they hear or read things like the above article it just starts a whole new round of ignorance fighting. If this becomes big news, I'll get the inevitable....I told you, you didn't want a hybrid, did you hear about the failing gas mileage and the failing batteries....Then I'm forced to either ignore or try to explain to someone who doesn't really know or care to know the significant differences between Honda's Hybrid system and Toyota's.

    I currently own a Honda, I've owned both brands. But as far as Hybrids and technology go, I'd rather both be succesful. Competition is good for advancement and success leads to change.
     
  13. PriusSport

    PriusSport senior member

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    We own both a Prius and an Insight, and like both. The Prius gets about 10% better gas mileage, and drives more like a conventional sedan. The Insight is sportier and handles better. As for the long term reliability of the Honda electricals, we'll see. Toyota has just been through a period of bashing in this country. Could be it's Honda's turn. Don't underestimate the politics. Lots of UAW jobs at stake.
     
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    This is a Ken Bensinger article from the Los Angeles TImes which have been unusually skeptical of hybrids. That doesn't mean the article is false as much as we should treat any report, favorable or unfavorable, with a skeptical view to find the hard facts and data. Generally speaking, the letter and quotes from Honda and regulatory bodies qualify:

    • Recall letter - "100,0000 owners of 2006, 2007 and 2008 Civics," what about the 2009 and 2010 owners?
    • John Urkov (California Air Resources Board) 'Honda swapped out more than 4% of the batteries in the 2006-08 Civic hybrids'. Then Honda spokesman Chris Martin later on "declined to provide nationwide failure rates . . ." which seems an unskilled attempt to hide what is already known in California.
    What I find especially interesting is:
    This last quote caught my eye because of "Hybrid Electric Vehicle End-of-Life Testing On Honda Insights, Honda Gen I Civics and Toyota Gen I Priuses", Department of Energy, INL/EXT-06-01262, February 2006. This early hybrid fleet study included testing the battery capacity of cars in Arizona service:
    They found:

    • "the two Civics have remaining battery capacities of about 68% . . . the Honda Civics had decreases of 1.5 mpg with the AC on and off . . ." pp. 13
    • "Priuses have remaining battery capacities of about 39% . . . the Priuses had an increase of 1.2 mpg without AC and a decrease of 2.0 mpg with AC." pp. 13
    It sounds like Honda had an engineering model change in 2006 and the hybrid management control laws had a change. Not unlike the "brake pause" problem of the ZVW30 model Prius, it didn't work out in the field. Hopefully the 2009 model fixed this latent defect. Unlike our brake problem, this defect appears to directly impact Civic traction battery life.

    For years, some Honda Civic advocates were happy that unlike our Prius, their cars continued to run if the traction battery failed. But unlike our Prius, their mileage is tied to the health and status of the battery driving their single motor, hybrid system. This has a potential impact on the Hyundai, GM and EU planned, single motor hybrids.

    Bob Wilson
     
  15. Paul58

    Paul58 Mileage Miser

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    Shouldn't the battery be covered by the warranty? I know I was told by my dealership that the battery is covered by the 8 year/100K mile warranty because it's an intricate part of the hybrid system. Face it, without a battery, it's not much of a hybrid!
     
  16. Prianista

    Prianista Member

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    Re: Honda 'Fix' for Civic Hybrid Wrecks Gas Mileage

    Looks like Honda is using a Kobayashi Maru solution to the 'no-win scenario' of honoring its battery warranties. They are changing the conditions of the test.
     
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  17. SlowTurd

    SlowTurd I LIKE PRIUS'S

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    complain a couple more times and you'll get the mpg of a big suv
     
  18. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Yes, it's easy to make the traction battery last for the warranty period, if it is not called upon to actually do work, but merely go along for the ride. Glad to see that the CA ARB is getting involved.

    Since the traction battery is the #1 failure area that causes concern among the non-hybrid owning population, it really is foolish for Honda to mess around with this software "fix".

    I thought that Toyota's use of plastic cable ties on the driver's floormat and cutting off 1/2" on the accelerator pedal bottom were examples of a half-a__ approach. This Honda software engineering change makes Toyota look really good in comparison.
     
  19. hampdenwireless

    hampdenwireless Active Member

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    It is. And by applying this 'trick' fix they can avoid having to replace it.

    The Prius clearly 'pays back' its hybrid premium environmentally because the average one has saved so much fuel it compensates for making the battery and recycling the battery. It may do this by a factor of several times.

    The Civic saves less gas with its hybrid system to start with. Then when you add the replacing of the battery or the reduced MPG due to this fix, it may not even save enough gas to pay back the extra effort in manufacturing the more complex car vs the regular gas version.
     
  20. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Hyundai hybrid has two MGs and one clutch. You may be referring to Nissan/Infinity hybrid with one MG and two clutches.