Who's fault is this?

Disagree.

I've routinely found myself going down the road at the posted speed limit, and just as I'm about to enter the intersection (ie, within a car length, or two), the light turns yellow. In Maryland, that is not a problem, and most drivers continue on through the intersection. Some speed up, but they needn't do that, because they are still covered under the law. But in other jurisdictions just down the road, say, in DC, you are not suppose to even enter the intersection when it turns yellow. That's the law in DC. So now what? I'm going 45 mph (the posted speed limit), I'm approaching the intersection and within a few car lengths (~20+ feet) of entering the intersection...the light turns yellow. Now what? trying to stop in that short a distance, going 45 mph (for example)...slam on my brakes and hope the guy behind me doesn't rear end me, or that I have the stopping power to stop before I enter the intersection? Com'on, use some common sense.

Two issues here. #1 What does thew law say, and #2 what is the safest thing to do. regarding #1, the law says, in some/many states, you can proceed to ENTER the intersection even if the light is yellow. With regards to #2...please. Again, use some common sense. Rear-end collisions in traffic are - by far - the most common traffic accident. That's because most people these days, in urban settings, drive too close to the person in front of them, and when the person in front of them makes a sudden move to stop, the person behind often has not allowed enough stopping distance beteen you and them. Please note - I'm NOT arging who's at fault...I'm just telling you the FACT of how it is, driving in many urban settings. One can always fall back on the law and say, "hey, I'm not at fault here". But so what...you still could be injured, and face a lengthy hassle getting your car fixed. But even if they have given enough room, where I drive...if you leave much more than 2 car lengths between you and the guy in front, somebody will zip around you and cut in front of you.

Getting T-boned from a car already stopped at a red light (from the other direction) is an extremly rare occurance, T-boning happens when another driver flies through a RED light hiting a car coming from the other direction...and that usually happens NOT when the light in the other direction is YELLOW, but when the light is GREEN. Further, and unless you are drag racing, one is not going to gain significant speed just while entering the intersection after the light turns from RED to GREEN. Again, the most common and dangerous T-boning accidents happen when someone from the other direction fails to see or heed the RED light in their direction, and enters the direction at the posted speed limit...as the unexpected driver from the other direction is proceeding (at posted speeds) because he/she has a GREEN light in their direction.

 

If you can't enter an intersection on a yellow then it's really just a red that means "I've just turned red".

In Maine the legislation on lights says:

B. A yellow light:
(1) If steady and circular or an arrow, means the operator must take warning that a green light is being terminated or a red light will be exhibited immediately; or


The exam manual/handbook says:

Traffic Lights
Steady Red: STOP. Do not enter crosswalk or intersection. A right
turn is permitted, after stopping, unless posted otherwise. Vehicles
making a right turn must yield to pedestrians and all vehicle traffic.
Steady Yellow: Caution. Traffic signal is about to change to red.
Begin to slow down. A yellow light clears the intersection before
the red light.
Green: GO. When the way is clear of traffic and pedestrians, you
may go straight ahead or turn left or right where permitted.

Maybe there are other laws covering it but in Maine it seems a little vague but with the basic principle that the driver should be ready to stop so should do if they can do so safely.

On the OP's question I'd ignore the light and imagine it wasn't there. Would the other driver have been safe to turn if the OP had maintained their speed? If yes, it's the OP's fault for speeding up, if no it's the other driver's fault for executing a dangerous maneuver.

 

bump.

 

This is a bad law. Bad laws and unethical enforcement produce bad results. Neither of these speaks to the basic theory which we are discussing, but instead emphasizes the need for clear, consistent, and sensible traffic laws. I can't help you with your laws, other than to say you need to get them changed.

Tom

 

I'm sorry, but I should have looked earlier. I notice you are from "Northern Michigan".

Hard to relate to the traffic situations many of us face on a DAILY BASIS living with 8 million people around you...when you live, and mostly drive in "Northern Michigan".

Don't intend this to be a slight (N Michigan is wonderful)...but your experiences don't relate to mine. just the way it is.

 

My point is if you're already going to be one full car length into the intersection at the time the light changes from yellow to red at the speed you're already going, why not speed up and be 1.5 or 2 car lengths into the intersection instead? Doing so serves a couple of advantages: 1) you allow more time for the cars waiting to do a left turn to do so and 2) you help avoid confusion by indicating to the other cars that you intend to proceed through.

"Not speeding up at intersection" is just as much of a BS rule as the widely believed "not changing lanes while in intersection" rule.

 

here in Indiana, the rule is when the light is yellow, clear the intersection. basically it means to leave the intersection the best way you can. as far as the other car in the other lane that had already stopped, it sounds almost like the car was stopped before the light turned yellow. sometime you'll have that. i've had people stop in the middle of the road in front of me so a person in oncoming traffic can turn left. complete road hazard when you're not at a light and you don't expect the car in front to stop int he middle of the road.

 

You can debate approaches, local jurisdictions and legality, and even bring in comparitive ways other countries present intersections and changing traffic lights. But bottom line Red, Yellow, Green and intersections, at some point almost everyone get's caught in that Zone of changing from Green to Yellow, from Yellow to Red...and it means split second decisions.

Nobody can guarantee what the right decision might be in every circumstance. My general approach is "don't push it". It's better to stop. However, I have been in circumstance either as the vehicle in the lead that stops and as the vehicle behind that vehicle where that decision can result in being rear ended, by the following vehicle that thinks you should push it and that you both can make it through the intersection.

I once was following a car through an intersection, the light literally had just gone from green to yellow and the car ahead of me was proceeding through the intersection, I thought we had plenty of time to make it through. That's when the automobile ahead of me spotted the Police Car stopped in the opposite direction and immediately slammed on his brakes. I slammed on mine...we did hit...very minor damage-cracked license plate frames...but I would of had no leverage if it had been a bigger accident. Basicly you cannot argue that the other guy "should of ran" the yellow light. My fault, my mistake.

So bottom line, you can go wrong pushing it. You far less often will go wrong being conservative. Everything else is a gray area. Most often if you are "speeding up" as you approach an intersection...you are pushing it...and win or lose...it's usually the wrong decision.

 

Exactly. Traffic congestion and urban pressures force people to drive like idiots. I was once a big city person too. It is much easier to be kind and considerate when you have time on your hands and know your fellow humans. Our village has 605 year round residents, and it is the largest village in the county. We have one stop light in our county, but it is 25 miles from where I live. You too could easily stop at yellow lights given our circumstances.

You make a good point. My point is that a properly timed traffic light should never require a driver to speed up to get through. The yellow is supposed to be long enough to allow you to either safely stop, or safely exit the intersection *before* the light turns red, not while you are in it. Sadly, many traffic signals fall short of this ideal.

Traffic laws vary by jurisdiction, but it's still fun to look at some of the statutes. Here is an excerpt from Michigan's traffic law FAQ page:

Tom

 

Back to the OP's original question:

"I thought the rule was that if you move to the middle of the intersection and put to a sideroad as soon as the light turns red, you won't get a ticket. This is because you're already "in" the intersection when the light turns red."


It depends on the individual laws of where you live. In Maryland, one is allowed to enter the intersection anytime while the light is yellow. That being said, the clear assumption i would infer from this - as long as you were already in the intersection when the light turns red...you will not get a ticket. Although some police (who may whitness) could site you if you're in the intersection (while the light is RED) for several seconds. In DC, however, you are not suppose to enter the intersection when the light is yellow. period. However, i would argue that such a law sets up a dangerous situation, because it does not allow for the situation where the driver is close to the intersection (within a car length, or two) and the light turns yellow. In that situation, with the traffic and speeds we have around here, if one were to attempt to comply with the law...by slamming on the brakes to stop before entering the intersection...there's a real good chance one, or both things would happen: (1) you get rear-ended, and/ or (2) You won't have enough stopping distance so that you encroach into the intersection. Either scenario is not safe, nor cool. IMO.

 

I suspect that King Solomon would have split you both in half for that one. My guess is that you would both be found at fault.

Him - failure to yield to oncoming traffic.
You - whatever law they have for failing to clear an intersection prior to the light turning red (likely a running a red light ticket).

Yes, technically you were in the intersection (as was the other driver) but you had zero chance of clearing the intersection before the light was red (as was he).

No, likely you both would have been cited. Be thankful that no one was in an accident and no officer was there to issue citations. Try to adjust your driving mindset accordingly to minimize this occurence in the future. It will be safer and cheaper for everyone.

 

If one is in the intersection while the light is yellow, how does one estimate that one has "zero chance" of making it through before the light turn red?

I would think that you would need to know the following information before making that determination: (1) How long has the light been yellow, (2) How long do the lights stay yellow where you live? (3) Your speed, (4) Remaining distance to clear the intersection.

Hard for your average driver to figure all that out in a split second.

On the flip side of this (talking about the possibility of being T-boned)...If I'm sitting at a red light, and when it finally turns green, it should be pretty obvious to the guy sitting at the red light, whether or not there is a car in the intersection, or not. If there is, I wait another few seconds until that person clears the intersection. It's not rocket science, and takes no interpretations or calculations to make this determination. It is the incredibly blind and unaware driver that would instantaneous forge out into the intersection without FIRST looking to see what's in front of him...even if he does have the law on his side, by virtue of having a green light.

 

Not according to your citing of the DC law earlier.

Note the "unless so close to the intersection that a stop cannot safely be made" part. Which is to say the law there is the same as the laws in most of the places that I've lived. When the light changes yellow you are supposed to stop, unless it isn't safe for you to do so.

When the light changes to yellow the question that pops into your mind shouldn't be "can I make it into the intersection before it changes red?"; it should be "can I safely stop?".

 

I think some of you are missing the point.

There was an SUV waiting to turn, so we can assume he was stopped with its turning light flashing. The OP was incoming and decided to accelerate. The SUV decides to turn despite seeing the incoming car. Now the OP might have violated his State's law, but certainly the real fault belongs to the one who moved last, that is the SUV. Before turning in fact you must make sure that is safe to do so and the SUV had plenty of time (and a perfect situation as he was stopped) to ascertain whether he could turn or not. I suppose that there is no law in State that justifies turning without being certain that you can.

 

True. But I'm arguing the degree.

My point was - If a police officer in DC winesses this, I think there has to be a VERY clear/strong case that the person could not make a safe stop prior to entering the intersection. Clealry, the intent in DC is - thou shalt not enter an intersection when the light is yellow, and if you do, you damn well better have a good excuse (such as slick roads, etc). In maryland, you ARE allowed to enter an intersection while the light is yellow.

As far as what should pop into your mind when the light turns yellow...personally, I'd perfer that my fellow driver focus more of their mind power and attention on the road, and avoiding hitting my car...and not so much on trying to make a determination, that quite frankly, can be very difficult to make give all the factors and timeframe involved.

One reason why i'm so against the driver who suddenly slams on his brakes to avoid entering the intersection when the light is yellow is - most accidents happen when a driver makes a sudden change in their momentum (direction, or magnitude).

 

Good point. But I think many of us are just focused on the one issue of what to do when seeing a yellow light at an intersection.

As far as the other driver turning into the OP while trying to make a turn. Clearly he too will bare some responsibility. There's no question about that.

 

In my state the law is fairly clear. It is against the law to enter the intersection on red. So if the light changed from yellow to red at the OP's entrance to the intersection and was witnessed by LEO--big fault. If the light remained yellow and the turning vehicle made his move--big fault, since moving vehicles have the right-of-way. This sounded like it occurred in a non-urban setting so slowing for the light would not be an issue. Therefore, with all the above assumptions in mind luck seemed to be as much a factor as blame assignment. If all drivers made it through with little more than tachycardia then it's a lesson for all of us: Believe that other guy is out to kill you. Has worked for me so far while riding my motorcycle.

 

Very true, and many cities abuse this particularly when it involves red light cameras. A website designed to fight red light camera tickets has the following disclaimer:

 

I'm sure it is illegal in all states to "enter" the intersection while the light is red. But that's not what the OP said (I assume when he says "orange", he means "yellow"):

"At about 10 yards, I saw the traffic light turn orange...

As the light was orange, I sped up getting ready to pass it....

The guy assumed that I was also going to stop at the intersection because the light was orange and the guy adjacent to me stopped. So who's fault is this?"


Maybe I misunderstood the OP, but I assumed he entered the intersection while the light was yellow ("orange"), and not red.