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Attention KANSANS! Tax Warning...

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by brandon, Oct 10, 2005.

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  1. brandon

    brandon Member

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    Fine, Nate, the Prius is powered solely by gasoline... I've run out of ways to tell you that the wording of the credit DOESN'T CARE how the secondary type of energy is made. It does't care if you pumped it or the car generated it from a different fuel source. They only care that the end product is two different types of power, namely gasoline and electricity from a battery. They're asking, "what are the two types of energy the car utilizes," and you're asking, "where did the two types of energy come from?" You're reading too far into this. Regardless of whether or not your concept of thermodynamics is right or wrong, the state simply doesn't care.

    In regards to the regeneration being wasteful, you're looking at it the wrong way. If you're decelerating, you are not using that energy for forward thrust. It is being lost as a product of inertial resistance or as heat by the braking process. Energy is not wasted by going into the battery, because it would otherwise not be used to "criuse." Granted, if you're capturing that energy while you're criusing, then it is less efficient, but we both know the car doesn't work that way. It only uses regenerative braking while you are decelerating or braking, not while criusing.
     
    #41 brandon, Oct 12, 2005
  2. Stringer

    Stringer New Member

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    Funny, here in Finland I would have to pay extra taxes if I could plug Prius to the wall. That is because now it is a gasoline car, but if it could take electricity from the wall, then it wouldn't be a gasoline car. And if it isn't a gasoline car, then the owner must pay something called "driving power tax". Originally the tax was meant for diesel engines, but the idiots at our goverment use it for electrical cars too. On the other hand, we pay extra tax from gasoline itself compared to diesel.

    Also, tax credit? Not with Prius. No, none. And never will be.
     
    #42 Stringer, Oct 12, 2005
  3. naterprius

    naterprius Senior Member

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    Okay, brandon, now is a good time for me to concede that I took the alternative fuel tax credit in Colorado.

    I hope you do get your tax credit from the State of Kansas. For Colorado, they declared that AT-PZEV also qualified for the credit even though it was not an alternative fuel vehicle. This includes the Prius, but not certain Honda Insight and Hybrid Civic models.

    Anyway, happy motoring.

    Nate
     
    #43 naterprius, Oct 12, 2005
  4. brandon

    brandon Member

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    At least Colorado is looking at the whole situation "more correctly" (I guess my grammar skills are on vacation today). By specifying AT-PZEV vehicles, they're selecting vehicles based on their cleanliness and not what type of energy/fuel they use.

    The lobbyists around my neck of the woods have done a good job of promoting ethanol-containing fuels as being the only sensible, environmentally-friendly alternative, to the point of drawing attention away from the benefits of other technologies. While that's good for corn producers, I'm not sure if it'll help us in the long run.
     
    #44 brandon, Oct 12, 2005
  5. brandon

    brandon Member

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    Huh. Now that's a tax law that just doesn't make sense.

    Strangely, however, I feel better knowing that the US (including Kansas) isn't the only place in the world with screwed up energy policies.
     
    #45 brandon, Oct 12, 2005
  6. naterprius

    naterprius Senior Member

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    Hey brandon, maybe you should try to run the Prius on E85!

    Nate
     
    #46 naterprius, Oct 12, 2005
  7. brandon

    brandon Member

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    I seem to vaguely remember reading something in the threads saying that E85 would likely confuse the emissions sensors, or something to that effect. I think I'll stick to plain ol' cheap unleaded gas for now... wait a minute, cheap gas?!?
     
    #47 brandon, Oct 12, 2005
  8. NuShrike

    NuShrike Active Member

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    We can just wait until they devolve into innocence, and then we can go in and Uplift them.
     
    #48 NuShrike, Oct 13, 2005
  9. frankdkatz

    frankdkatz New Member

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    The feds give a tax credit for hybrids, but not under the section that has the definition of an alternative fuel vehicle (42 U.S.C Section 13211). That section requires that the vehicle run on an alternative fuel. The Prius does not. It runs on gasoline alone. It is the gasoline that gets it up to a speed from which regeneration can be made. The Kansas department was right to deny the credit. The Kansas legislature was wrong in not giving a credit for hybrids. That is where to heep your scorn and direct your lobbying.
     
    #49 frankdkatz, Oct 14, 2005
  10. Subversive

    Subversive New Member

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    I can imagine some people might consider electricity to be an "alternative fuel," at least when talking about cars. So no alternative fuel bennies for electric cars, then, huh?
     
    #50 Subversive, Oct 14, 2005
  11. frankdkatz

    frankdkatz New Member

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    If the car used electricity from an external source such as pluging it in or from solar panels, it would qualify. But it doesn't. It uses gasoline to generate electricity and then uses that stored electricity.
     
    #51 frankdkatz, Oct 14, 2005
  12. brandon

    brandon Member

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    Please read previous posts for my response to that argument. Just because some of the electrcity stored in the battery was generated as a result of gasoline combustion doesn't mean the electricity doesn't qualify as an alternative fuel by definition of the Kansas tax laws.
     
    #52 brandon, Oct 14, 2005
  13. DanMan32

    DanMan32 Senior Member

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    I have to agree with Nate and the rest. The point about alternative fueled vehicles is where the alternative FUEL a cleaner fuel alternative to gasoline or diesel. The electric interim within the vehicle is only to make the gasoline useage more efficient. It is not FUELED by electricity. You could not run the car without gasoline, except for what was stored BY gasoline, and that isn't much. Even the kinetic energy for regen was produced by GASOLINE. Think of regen as a rebate on gasoline. You have to pay something to get a rebate, in this case, burn gasoline.

    Anyway, the Kansas instructions do state that they user Federal article 42 with regard to the definition of an alternative FUEL vehicle. By fuel, they mean the external source of its power. Usually this would require an alternative FUELING STATION, unless it could gather such fuel on the fly, such as solar.
     
    #53 DanMan32, Oct 21, 2005
  14. JMcPhee

    JMcPhee New Member

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    I'm jumping in on Brandons side here! :D

    I've attached Kansas' form K62. please read page 3, under General Information, paragraph 3....

    [attachmentid=668]

    "A qualified alternative-fueled motor vehicle is one that operates on an alternative fuel, nmeets or exceeds the clean fuel vehicle standards in the federal clean air act amendments of 1990, Title II, and is one of the following:

    Bi-fueled motor vehicle--A motor vehicle with two separate fuel systems designed to run on either an alternative fuel or conventional fuel, using only one fuel at a time; or....."

    now, no matter how YOU may choose to describe it, it is painfully clear that the great state of Kansas describes it in a way that qualifies the Prius.

    My question to you, Brandon, is have you called/emailed [email protected], as listed at the bottom of page 4? :huh:
     
    #54 JMcPhee, Oct 21, 2005
  15. JMcPhee

    JMcPhee New Member

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    Nate, you're making fallacious assumptions in an effort to support your opinion. The word "powered" in no way means something has to be plugged in. How many toys today are "powered" by batteries?

    Your opinion is yours, and you can have it, but The Toyota Prius is "powered" by both gasoline and the battery. If you disagree, take a look at the attachment, taken from Toyota's Hybrid synergy page.

    [attachmentid=669]

    "From initial acceleration to low speeds, power is provided by Prius' quiet electric motor...."

    'nuff said.
     
    #55 JMcPhee, Oct 21, 2005
  16. brandon

    brandon Member

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    Interesting take on this, however the tax law (and specifically 42 U.S.C. 13211) defines electricity as an alternative fuel. The electricity does make the gasoline usage more efficient, but that fact does not make it any less of an alternative fuel, by definition. I should also mention that by your interpretation, the "interim electric power" could still be defined as a "replacement fuel," also mentioned in the USC, still qualifying the Prius as an alternative-fuel vehicle.

    I'll second JMcPhee's comments in response to the claim that the Prius is not fueled by electricity, and again state that, by definition of the K-62, electrcity is a form of alternative fuel. We cannot fully-assume that energy gained from regen is solely a product of using gasoline, and even if we did, it doesn't matter as the state doesn't care where the electrcity came from... see previous posts. There are other factors to consider, such as gravity and wind currents as suppliers of kinetic energy. Surely the regen you get from coasting down a steep hill isn't entirely attibutable to gasoline combustion. In other words, you receive rewards in addition to the "rebate."

    First for clarification, the state statute points to USC when it defines "alternative fuel," and it uses its own definition for a "qualified alternative-fueled motor vehicle." Second, I guess I don't see the part in the USC where they specify it be an "external" source of power. That same code defines electricity as an alternative fuel and gasoline as a conventional fuel - it doesn't get into the whole "but where did the fuel come from" debate.
     
    #56 brandon, Oct 22, 2005
  17. brandon

    brandon Member

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    I guess "great" is a relative term... :rolleyes:

    To tell you the truth, I didn't even notice that contact info, what with the overly-complicated directions that consume the rest of the page. I think I'll give the phone number a shot on Monday and see what I can find out. Thanks!

    I have the "informal" teleconference call with the department of revenue next Thursday (10/27/2005), so I'm interested in getting the KCC's take on the issue before that call. Their website doesn't come right out and say hybrids = alternative fuel vehicles, but the section on alternative-fuel vehicles lists information on hybrid technology...
     
    #57 brandon, Oct 22, 2005
  18. Tempus

    Tempus Senior Member

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    Well, if I were Kansas I'd suggest that by your definition the car is actually tri-fuel.

    Indeed it's true that once you use the gasoline engine to create energy and store it in the battery you can use the stored energy to move.

    But, by the same token, once you use the gasoline engine to drive to the top of a hill, storing kinetic energy, you can use that energy to move too, so you have a gravity powered car too.

    It's exactly the same principle.

    Now, if you put a mast and sail on top, then you'd have something you could argue with :)
     
    #58 Tempus, Oct 22, 2005
  19. FourOhFour

    FourOhFour Member

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    Unless the car was constructed on the hill, you used gasoline combustion to get up it.
     
    #59 FourOhFour, Oct 22, 2005
  20. kpauley

    kpauley New Member

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    Brandon, how did the teleconference go?
     
    #60 kpauley, Nov 2, 2005
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