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electric motor tech

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by practica, Aug 26, 2010.

  1. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    This is consistent to what was told to us by the chief engineer when we were in Detroit.

    Tom
     
  2. practica

    practica Junior Member

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    News reports emphasized extensive work on aerodynamics, achieving the least air resistance ever in autos. Special attention to the bottom was supposed to be important. More wind tunnel hours than ever etc.
    I get 45mpg at 80mph common on rural interstates, compared to denser areas. You'd only get the EPA 49 at 60 or the proverbial 55 -- or driving in Japan?.
     
  3. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Those graphs ken provided showed that mg2 in the GenII was pretty efficient. I would only think it could get 3% more efficient and the addition of anouther planetary gear set would likely take away this advantage. So from Mg2 the change likely made it use less material which corresponds to lighter weight and lower cost to manufacture while increasing available power. In the document ken provided mg1 was a standard brushless motor with permanent magnets. If they changed this to be a PM/induction hybrid motor like Mg2 they may have increased it efficiency and power at high speeds while reducing weight, so most of the gains must have come from the combination of better sizing and efficiency of Mg1 and the ICE. The PSD including mg1 and mg2 dropped 66lbs and there should be a corresponding correspondance in lower cost to manufacture.

    Aerodynamics are likely one of those media talking points, not real world efficiency. Drag is proportional to CdA, and the Gen II and Gen III have nearly identical numbers. The Cd dropped slightly while area increased. I do think they made the car look better though:)
     
  4. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Are you talking about the mileage improvement of the FFH and TCH over their non-hybrid versions? If so, I haven't looked. If you're talking about the FFH having higher EPA mileage ratings than the TCH, that didn't help it in Consumer Report's testing.

    Per Best & worst cars review, fuel-efficient vehicles, in CR's testing, the FFH seemed to have worse mileage than the TCH. I don't know about in other tests, but perhaps Ford just optimized better for the EPA test cycles.
     
  5. energyandair

    energyandair Active Member

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    TCH @ 34/28/41 and FFH @ 34/25/40 does not appear to add up

    How can TCH rate 3 mpg better than FFH for City and 1 mpg better for Highway yet have the same overall mpg rating?

    Is the Overall mpg based on something other than the City & Highway mpgs?
     
  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Those numbers look pretty strange and are not internally consistant, do you know how they tested? Car and driver had figures that averaged 34mpg in FFH, 31mpg TCH from calculated gasoline, but also showed computer where TCH had a much bigger overestimation of mpg.

    The TCH does not seem to get close to the city mpg that you would expect from scaling in from the Prius or FFH. This may have to do with the efficiency of the engine and sizing of the motors and batteries. I am not sure if TCH is using EGR, if not this is one of the tools Toyota used to improve the Gen III. Adding DI and higher compression would also help engine efficiency, a turbo with lower displacement is another possibility. Switching to a Li battery would reduce weight and increase peak battery power.
     
  7. practica

    practica Junior Member

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    They did a great job on the system dropping 66lbs that way. I felt confident buying this because of how the possibilities of the hybrid were thoroughly exploited, eliminating the transmission etc., compared to just tacking an electric motor onto conventional drivetrains. That's going beyond efficiency as such to improve the whole product.

    It does not seem very amenable to being purely battery driven without making the electric motors much bigger, and changing the over-all design then quite a lot even if you had the required battery. The Volt doesn't seem to match the fuel efficiency running on gas, reported only 38mpg. I wonder why they didn't use a gas turbine, thought they were supposed to be the most efficient engine (but electric locomotives use diesel cylinder engines still, so must be misinformed).
    [correction: the battery is only rated at 34hp, but I think the electric motor is rated 84hp, so not so much bigger for all electric use -- mainly needs a lithium battery, with some complications. The all-electric Tesla car is described as requiring a gear shifting transmission to use their electric motor, and the batteries have to be water cooled to operate at that level of power. The hybrid system keeps things simple with the optimum selection of proportions, and thus practical and affordable. The Tao of the hybrid.]
     
  8. practica

    practica Junior Member

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    It seems the improvement supposedly made in EPA measurement protocol some years ago from widespread complaints about impractical figures, may not be all it was made out to be. Definitely need to check other sources when comparing hybrids.
    I definitely get 49-50 mpg city on the Prius, remarkable.
    Can't seem to get that impressive a gain in bigger vehicles though, when the gas engine expands to 2.4L from the 1.8 Prius. And the price premium for the hybrid engine isn't as attractive. But the Prius is bigger than the Corolla, and as big as an older American mid-size sedan it replaced.
    In terms of supply at a competitive price, it seems quite a breakthrough, if I'm not just dreaming. It's got so many other nifty features after all. The body shape allows the rear door to be more square, so bulky cargo too high for the trunk can fit through the door onto the back seat 6" lower than the trunk platform. Yet it doesn't look boxy like a wagon.
     
  9. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi Practica,

    Yea, there was allot of carping from the traditionalist that the Prius mileage was a fluke, and it was just tuned to the test, and not the real world too.

    But this was contradicted by Prius Chat members commonly saying that the Prius was the first car they had that actually got the EPA mileage, that is the OLD EPA mileage. It was even so bad that the EPA mileage site was rejecting allot of the reports we attempted to make as unrealistically high.

    Then they went and changed the way the test results are combined, and added in the high speed run (up to 80 mpg) and the new EPA shows the 2nd Gen Prius much lower in mileage.

    The end result is allot of experienced Prius drivers easily outdo the EPA now...
     
  10. practica

    practica Junior Member

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    I'd be curious what exactly the efficiency gains are of the Atkinson cycle engine compared to an Otto cycle of the same capacity. I suppose one must consider it with the requisite transmission differences, getting complicated. It would seem the main source of hybrid efficiency is this engine, as on highway the car is mainly propelled by it. But you don't see a lot of technical details, just how the torque is affected and so on. Ford is supposed to be doing the same thing so it should hardly be a trade secret anymore. Of course the method is also to lower the size of the engine to support only cruising speed, using electric assist for acceleration. The car does not at all feel like just a 100hp motor. Even in ECO mode it passes well on the highway.
    I wonder if Ford has the same psd - dual-generator approach; it's described only as a similar "full hybrid", mainly referencing braking energy recovery, not the same thing.
     
  11. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Are you speaking only to highway mileage? The overall mileage gains with the Prius come from many places: good aerodynamics, Atkinson Cycle engine, regenerative braking, engine shutdown when stopped, low rolling resistance tires, ability to run the engine at efficient loads, and feedback to the driver. They all play a role.

    Tom
     
  12. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

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    It's the other way round or both together. The motors allow the engine to be at efficient loads on an Atkinson cycle.

    It's the secret of the Hybrid Grail: the engine and the motor are one.

    Mode doesn't really change available power just pedal response. In fact ECO has more available power if anything since it reduces draw from the A/C.
     
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  13. Judgeless

    Judgeless Senior Member

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    Perfect post. That is dead on.
     
  14. practica

    practica Junior Member

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    The tires add a little bit according to the comparisons given by the tire makers advertising their low resistance models, but not a great deal. Those tires are also not highly rated for snow, and I'm not sure they are such a good idea outside of Florida, California, etc. in winter areas. I expect to give that bit up when the original tires wear out, likely between 30 and 50K mi (when the basic car warranty ends), and replace with rain tires, from Goodyear and the like. Those are also made for fifty per cent more lifetime, though costing proportionately more -- same price per mile.
     
  15. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Not all LRR tires are only for summer. I have run both Micheline and Nokian LLR tires that were good for winter driving and gave better mileage than the OEM tires supplied with the Prius.

    On the other hand, many PC members have used non-LRR tires that have caused a 5% to 10% drop in mileage. That is substantial by my calculations.

    Tom
     
  16. practica

    practica Junior Member

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    Michelin interesting as not one of the three I saw used as OEM LRR tires -- and they claim more efficient than the Goodyear.
    All these LRR tires seem to use a tire compound innovation using silica. It's funny they don't get more life from lower resistance, as the grippier tires usually wear faster from sticking to the road more. The rubber qualities are getting stretched in new directions.
     
  17. practica

    practica Junior Member

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    New motor/generator designs coming: due to global limitations on the supply or rare earth neodymium for permanent magnet motors, regardless of Chinese source political issues, new designs of induction motors with cheaper materials are being sought by Toyota and electrical engineers in academia. Much of the very few sources are in China, and subject to export restrictions to meet domestic demand. The rare earths were practical only when hybrids and electrics were a small fraction of car production, but the source limitations will raise the price of neodymium very high when a much larger volume of car production makes use of it. Cars are major consumers of mineral resources, and these are not called "rare" for nothing.. The modern semiconductor control of currents may make possible advances in design of induction motors. This has to be done to keep the cost of hybrid power plants reasonable. Mass produced cars are not a suitable use for such a rare material.
     
  18. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    I keep hearing that the 'rare earth' supplies are not concentrated in China. China just has low labor and environmental costs and government support that allows them to undercut the prices of everyone else, shutting down the other mines.

    Once prices rise to more realistic levels, others will resume production. But we do have to watch out for temporary market squeezes.
     
  19. tpfun

    tpfun New Member

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    How about better response ?
     
  20. tpfun

    tpfun New Member

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    Are those the Gen II and III drivetrains ?