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E10 coming to Germany - what to expect?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Fuel Economy' started by pakitt, Dec 24, 2010.

  1. pakitt

    pakitt Senior Member

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    Starting from 01.01.2011 in Germany petrol stations will have to sell the E10 gas - (gas with 10% ethanol in it).
    I don't know if this is going to be EU wide, but likely so.
    I also didn't manage to understand if E5 will still be available (likely), and if yes, whether it is going to be cheaper or more expensive than E10.

    I have read a lot of things in Priuschat about E10, mainly "horror" stories ;)
    Exactly:
    - can the Prius "drink" E10? (not a word about it on the Toyota.de website)
    - are there any changes in fuel economy? I believe today I am using already E5 - what differences to expect from E5 or from regular gas?

    Philosophical question: what is the use of E10 if ethanol is produced using land for growing food, it might indirectly raise food prices and it increases fuel consumption as well? why this madness of E10 and not forcing manufacturer's to build better cars and help people drive less?
     
  2. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    I believe it is EU wide though there have been political grumblings over here about the use of land to produce the ethanol instead of food, so I don't know if there is an opt out or not?

    My understanding is that the Prius can use E10 as per the owners manual, though I'm sure it will affect fuel economy.
     
  3. pakitt

    pakitt Senior Member

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    I personally find the E10 thing a total BS - I hope they will repeal this and instead adopt more sensible ways (taxation, for example) to reduce CO2 emissions - lobbies are strong though, especially in Germany...
    But weirdly so, in Germany I pay only 36€/year of tax because I generate very low CO2. So Germany has a taxation that actually already addresses CO2 - and their gas prices are already so high that having a car that consumes less gas and produces, hence, less CO2, will lower your bill. But people often don't think with their heads, or simply have somebody else paying for their gas (read, company cars)....
    Who knows.... I hope they repeal it ASAP.
     
  4. brick

    brick Active Member

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    You and everyone else can expect to use about 5% more fuel than before. Other than that you should not notice anything.
     
  5. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    The injectors and valves will be clean all the time.

    Ethanol is fine as an oxygenating additive to reduce hydrocarbon pollution, but until it can be made from cellulose it makes little sense as a fuel. The energy return is too low and if made from food crops it uses too much land and water.
     
  6. alfon

    alfon Senior Member

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    I don't know what the big fuss is about Ethanol.

    Heck, it only takes 2 gallons of diesel fuel to
    make one gallon of Ethanol.

    Come on people lighten up.
     
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  7. RobH

    RobH Senior Member

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    In California we used to have an additive called MTBE that was used to reduce hydrocarbon emissions. The problem with MTBE is that it is a serious pollutant itself. The MTBE has been replaced with 10% Ethanol, which solves the MTBE problem and still keeps some of the hydrocarbons out of the air. Mileage is definitely lower. Overall, I suspect that total air pollution is worse because of all the energy required to produce corn ethanol. But it's happening in Iowa where they grow the corn, not in California where we burn it.
     
  8. Dr.Mikki

    Dr.Mikki New Member

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    Its coming to Finland as well so I guess it is EU wide. In Finland people have been instructed to check whether their cars can use 95E10 gas or should they use 98E05, which will be more expensive. Most cars seem to work with E10, but some surprising new cars will not, e.g. Toyota Avensis 2,0 VVT and 2,4 VVT 2003-2008 models will not.

    The Finnish site is here
    Toyota - E10
     
  9. Erikon

    Erikon Active Member

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    E10 made from corn is a sad joke. It reduces the cars efficiency by nearly the same percentage, so you end up using just as much gas. So much for it reducing dependence on oil! Producing it burns more oil and creates more of the greenhouse gasses than it reduces! Every way you look at it, it benefits no one except the corporations and politicians pushing it!
     
  10. Tchou

    Tchou Member

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    E-10 is in France since at least a year, I've not seen any difference in the consumption of the car, maybe more when it's cold as it seems the engine produce less heat…
    From time to time I put regular gas in the tank but there's no way to say the mileage was better or worse with a given type of gas…
     
  11. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Been reading some of the info on this and it appears that Euro Premium 95 RON will contain 10% ethanol whereas the (more expensive) Euro Super 98 RON unleaded will contain 5% ethanol so as to assist older or non compatible cars.

    In the past there have been threads as to whether it is worthwhile using Super 98RON unleaded and whether it offers better running or economy. Well, if normal petrol is going to contain 10% ethanol which will reduce economy, wouldn't it make sense to start using 98 RON Super unleaded now?

    Surely higher octain AND less ethanol will allow your car to get better fuel economy?


    (Euro 95 RON Premium = US 91 Octane)
    (Euro 98 RON Super = US 94 Octane)
     
  12. brick

    brick Active Member

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    Less ethanol should buy you back some fuel economy, but higher octane won't do anything unless an engine is designed to take advantage via higher compression, which results in higher thermodynamic efficiency. Since a Prius only needs 92 RON I don't think going up to 98 will help.
     
  13. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    So no performance gain BUT probably a slight mpg gain?
     
  14. brick

    brick Active Member

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    That's what I would expect. Couldn't hurt anything to try both and see what works best, of course.
     
  15. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    You would be hard pressed to measure a difference in fuel economy between 5% and 10% ethanol.

    By energy content 10% ethanol gives about 3% worse fuel economy so the difference between 5% and 10% ethanol content would only be about 1.5% in fuel economy . You would be hard pressed to measure that difference in the real world.

    People that stand to make money from ethanol and True Believers claim it doesn't hurt economy. Anecdotal evidence from individuals runs all over the map with claims of 10% worse fuel economy not being all that rare.
     
  16. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Haven't you just contradicted yourself there? A 1.5% difference is neither here nor there, even with a Prius, but a 10% difference is 5mpg which is significant.
     
  17. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    I made it clearer

    changed from "5% and 10%" to "5% and 10% ethanol content"
     
  18. Crazytwoknobs

    Crazytwoknobs Junior Member

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    I probably shouldn't say anything at all about this since my knowledge is seriously lacking in this arena, but here goes.

    In Illinois, every gas pump has a sticker that says "Contains up to 10% ethanol". I assume it's from corn, some of the stickers have pictures of corn on them. The amount of ethanol varies based on the time of year, so there is a "winter gas" and a "summer gas", I don't know which has more ethanol.

    Stihl, a German company, recommends that users of their pro-series chainsaws NOT use gasoline with ethanol, as it reduces the life of the engine. I heard rumors of special 2-stroke oil with an additive for gas with ethanol. If anyone knows where to get some, PM me.
     
  19. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    [​IMG]
     
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  20. pakitt

    pakitt Senior Member

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    Today this was posted by [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiftung_Warentest"]Stiftungwarentest.de[/ame] (a German consumer organisation and foundation - much estimated by everybody here) about E10.
    Regarding the fuel consumption they write the following:

    that is (more or less)...

    Moreover, E10 means "up to" 10% - which means that if the content of bioethanol is 5.1% is already "E10"... Hence, depending on the gas manufacturer, your mileage will vary, literally.

    I have not yet used E10 (my last tank was still E5) - the only thing I know is that E10 is now priced at the old E5 price, and the E5 is now priced like Super (higher octane, that is) gas. So, considering the price delta of about 3,5% (1,449€ E10 vs 1,499€ E5/super today at a gas station), I better stick (unfortunately) to E10...

    BTW: apparently the bioethanol is produced in EU, that is currently already overproducing food (the rest being sent to Africa destroying local economies and farmers possibility to fight cheap price of imports). As long this is true, let's get along with E10 then....and hope it is only 1.5% to 5% (which in my case would mean move from 5.39L/100km-43.5MPG to 5.66L/100km-41.5MPG in the long term, worst case, as per above statements...; about half a km less per litre; I am going to pay in any case more thanks to the unrest in North Africa which, although being the smallest of producers, is an excellent excuse to raise prices of oil further...)

    I am also looking forward for the findings, if they ever conduct a survey about this, from [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattroruote"]Quattroruote.it[/ame].

    Any feedback from other EU or WW (consumer and authoritative) sources?