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Tesla killed my electric car....

Discussion in 'Tesla' started by georgekessel, Dec 23, 2010.

  1. georgekessel

    georgekessel Member

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    Tell that to my 95lb wife!

    I see many reviews that all say it handles poorly. They all say it's too heavy in the middle and tends to greatly oversteer. Did you do any research before making that statement? Did you see the heavily disputed Top Gear episode?

    I think you are misinformed. Tesla is NOT behind in deliveries. They have a glut of vehicles at their dealerships. The only reason mine was ordered was b/c it had a special non-leather interior. You can walk in and drive one out today. Call them at 1.650.681.5100
    and ask for their available inventory. The backlog is long since cleared out and they are needing to sell more cars. You can own one today if you want, and I wish you would! It is a LOT of fun to drive.

    Really? Have you any references on this? Sounds great I just hope this is true. It would be the perfect circle and exactly what is needed.
     
  2. georgekessel

    georgekessel Member

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    Daniel I really wish that was correct but I don't think it is. According to Air Transport World (www.atwonline.com) the air freight network is so fluid that it immediately adjusts to changes in capacity needs. That was the point of the spoke-and-hub system which goes for both human-transport and cargo-transport. Also aircraft are not loaded with fuel until they know their takeoff weight.

    These are not special airplanes only used to transport cars, they are regular cargo flights that - if there was not enough capacity - would not take off. To calculate the overall GHG savings, you'd need to take every Roadster produced and add them all together, then see how many flights you could have saved if they had all gone via sea.

    Cargo flights are cancelled quite regularly if there isn't enough capacity. It isn't like a commercial flight where positioning is key. You can re-route parcels easily through various transit points. They don't get upset like a person would about being re-routed.

    If you have data to show otherwise please post it. I would LOVE to be wrong on this. I have gone to extreme lengths to reduce air shipping where I work to a minimum. We reduced it ~80% over the past 3 years and I am proud of that.
     
  3. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    My "dedication to the environment" point is, again, directed at long term. The carbon footprint of the Tesla is a bit large, the bigger point is that in the long run they'll be building the cars here, working toward reducing that footprint, and taking the auto industry in a positive direction.

    As pointed out above, the battery life is NOT 7 years. The 80% life is 7 years. The warranty you were offered would allow you to replace for a brand new. And you suggested they would just change out a few cells in some effort to rip you off--that is exceptionally unlikely. If you read up about lithium batteries you'll know that they must, necessarily, be balanced and of approximately the same age or there will be serious problems with functionality and dramatically dimished life. It's far easier and more cost effective to replace the entire battery block, then recycle the old cells. Also, I suspect that 80% mark is conservative and with good battery care you'll likely do better.

    If you don't wanna pay the $12k then just drive the car until the battery is worthless, then replace it for the $50.

    For an expensive sports car your mainenence costs over that 7 year period ($1k/yr + $12k battery warranty =$19k) is much the same as many sports cars in it's class--if not lower when you look at the high end cars that can go 0-60 in 4 sec.
     
  4. georgekessel

    georgekessel Member

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    Thank you for discussing this with me. I am very much enjoying and appreciating your point of view. I'd like to hypothesize one thing though - now that the point "electric cars can be cool" point has been proven, would the responsible consumer action be to wait for Tesla to make an eco-friendly vehicle and purchase that one, rather than contributing a possible 20,000lbs of GHG to our ecosystem by purchasing the current model?


    Something to ponder.
     
  5. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    Evan,

    FYI, here's an example for a "bargain supercar," the Nissan GT-R:

    Our fathers always told us there's no such thing as a free lunch, and
    if something seems too good to be true, it probably is. Then along
    came the Nissan GT-R, billed as a "bargain supercar" for those of
    merely elevated means. With a list price below eighty grand and
    performance to embarrass exotics worth several times as much, it
    seemed like the shoestring exotic had finally arrived like Santa Claus
    on Christmas. Couple that with what you'd be forgiven for assuming
    would be reasonable ownership costs – it is, after all, a Nissan, not a
    Ferrari – and the impossible had appeared to have happened.

    However, such optimistic judgments about upkeep may have been
    premature. That's what the boys over at Inside Line found when their
    GT-R was called in to have its fluids changed. With transmission fluid
    selling for over $100 a quart, plus labor, the costs added up rather
    quickly, resulting in a routine refresh of the car's fluids and filters
    adding up to a sign-of-the-times-if-we've-ever-seen-one total of $2009
    and change. If that's a bargain, we don't want to know what expensive
    is. :eek:

    Follow this link to see IL's full breakdown.


    From insideline.com.

    At the other ridiculous extreme there is the Bugatti Veyron, the world's
    fastest, most expensive, most environmentally insensative sports car.

    Routine maintenance will cost you another $20,000 as compared to
    only $3000 for other luxury cars.

    A Bugatti Veyron with an 8Liter W16 cylinder engine will guzzle gas like
    a thirsty elephant. When running at full speed at 253 mph, it will empty
    its full tank in 12 minutes but if you are a city-dweller, would it
    discomfort you much if you know that it uses up 48 liters for every 100
    miles of travel?


    More you have to read yourself. :eek:
     
  6. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Well, my answer to this would be that the "responsible" action would be to worship at the feet of Darell (the EV Nut), cover your roof with solar panels, and ride a bicycle. Having said that, I do not do this myself. My particular form of irresponsibility is to fly in commercial jets several times a year (big carbon footprint) and live in too big a house (I like the location). But as far as transportation, I drive my little three-legged clown car (you can still buy them as far as I know) powered here in WA by hydro.

    The Tesla is probably still the lowest-carbon sports car around. A sports car is not "green" so the more "environmental" choice would be a Nissan Leaf, or a Zap Xebra, or a bicycle. But if someone's going to buy a four-seconds-to-sixty sports car, the Tesla is the best choice.

    I'd say, you need to decide why you wanted the Tesla. If it was for the rocket ship speed, buy it (and stop by here and let me drive it once :D ). If it was just to go electric, buy a Leaf. If it was to lower your carbon footprint, as much as I personally hate diesel, your used-cooking-oil car has a zero carbon footprint because all its carbon came from contemporary agriculture.

    So here's the new question: Of all the possible reasons for buying a Tesla Roadster (and I can think of many) what was your reason? Why specifically did you want it?
     
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  7. hampdenwireless

    hampdenwireless Active Member

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    Yes, I did research. Did you?

    Weight in the middle is a good thing not a bad thing.
    2009 Tesla Roadster - Steering Feel and Handling - First Drive - Motor Trend

    They say the OPPOSITE of what you say, a very gentle understeer:
    "The steering first: it's direct, light under way and utterly precise. Most of all, it communicates road feedback in a league ahead of the usual big-gun sports cars. It needs just small front tires -- 175/55 15 -- and they carry little weight, so their messages are free of corruption and interference. There is very gentle steady-state understeer, but this can be neutralized by an extra brush of the accelerator."

    Another glowing review of the handling:
    Tesla Roadster

    And another that says good handling with slight understeer:
    Driven (Finally): Tesla Roadster | Autopia | Wired.com

    Lotus is known for their suspension and handling and they did the suspension in this car. They did an excellent job in dealing with the weight of the battery.
     
  8. georgekessel

    georgekessel Member

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    You're arguing in an emotional manner when the rest of us on this post are actually engaging in conversation. In your original post you said "You are the only person or reviewer I have ever heard who said the handing was poor, yet alone very poor. The suspension is designed by Lotus!". Then when I questioned if you researched that claim, you replied back as above but you didn't say anything to support your assertion that I am the only person or reviewer you have ever (ever is a very strong word) heard who said the handling was poor.

    Yes the Telsa is essentially a Lotus Elise with an electric engine so naturally the suspension is designed and built by Lotus. I have driven both and can say with confidence that the Elise handled much much better. I spent a day in a 2010 Roadster Sport and pushed it to it's limit (not on public roads). It understeered, dramatically so at it's limit.

    I cited for you the "infamous" top gear episode


    Now, remember that Tesla really dislikes calling their car "an Electric Lotus" and told me many times how different the two cars are. In reality though they are sisters.

    Auto Rivals | 2010 Tesla Roadster vs 2010 Lotus Elise

    Look how similar the two cars are in appearance, components and layout. If you are going to compare the Tesla Roadster to another "supercar" you should compare it to it's sister, the older Elise. The Elise cost around half (depending on how you equip both cars) - but remember that the actual sister Elise is no longer produced due to side airbag issues (it didn't meet the new DOT safety requirements and was updated, neither does the Tesla which is being sold under a waiver http://www.hybridcars.com/news/airbag-waiver-keeps-tesla-roadster-alive.html).

    Anyway there are lots and lots of articles about the Tesla understeering. Some are written by very off-topic people such as this one Tesla Death Watch 30: "Violent Understeer" | The Truth About Cars

    But others are more on-topic such as

    "Cornering can also be dramatic in the Roadster Sport, but for the wrong reasons. Unlike Lotus cars using the same body and chassis, the Tesla Roadster Sport has a big, heavy battery pack sitting behind the passenger compartment, changing the weight distribution. During our short time with the car, we didn't get to test it thoroughly, but there seemed to be quite a bit of understeer

    Read more: http://reviews.cnet.com/convertible/2010-tesla-roadster-sport/4505-10870_7-33857809.html#ixzz19EQKlAPm "

    But the best reviews are written by people who own or regularly drive Teslas and even post their handling concerns on the Tesla chat site:

    Tesla handling fundamentals

    Here is my advice based on experience with the Roadster and track driving in general:


    In comparing the Tesla Roadster or Roadster Sport to other sports cars there are some basic fundamentals that define the handling characteristics of the Tesla that trace their roots back to a single thing: the Tesla is based on one of the most finely tuned/balanced chassis in the world but then adds about 800 pounds toward the back.

    As a result, you have a few things that you really can't get around.

    1) The brakes, which are the same as the Elise/Exige, were designed to stop a car that was 30% lighter. As a result you will have a harder time stopping in high-speed stuff and the brakes will fade more etc. etc.

    One might then conclude that the best after market mod would be a big brake kit for the Roadster, but there are some problems with this: most importantly, braking is ultimately limited by the traction available in your front tires, and the front tires are very narrow. In the case of the porsche comparo, the Roadster Sport has 195mm wide tires and the Porsche's are 20% wider at 235. The problem is worse if you don't have the sports package and your front tires are 175mm wide. Bigger brakes certainly wont help with the standard setup. They might do something with the added grip of the 195mm AO48s (I never drove that particular setup) but the other problem is that the front wheels of the Tesla are 16" in diameter so there isn't much room for bigger rotors/calipers.

    2) The lack of grip/contact patch in the front, combined with the weight in the rear, leads to a significant tendency to understeer (and the oversteer) in various situations. This is directly related to the above paragraph, and the only thing you can do about the understeer is put the wider, grippier AO48s up front, use the adjustable swaybars to tune out the understeer (I believe you should use the softer setting up front and stiffer in the rear but you should consult a tuner familiar with lotus chassis), and use camber adjusters. Camber shouldn't mess with efficiency (toe does) but dialing in camber will cause more wear in the inside track of the tire under normal driving which may cause you to replace the tires more frequently. Once you get the understeer under control be careful about oversteer!

    Still, all of these tweaks will help things but they cant overcome the basic imbalance of car's setup. The Tesla will not handle as well as top sports cars but will try to make it up with the great acceleration.

    Still, I would strongly recommend that anyone who likes to drive aggressively on the streets or on twisties (like Dr. Taras) should upgrade to the sports suspension and run the wider AO48s. The standard roadster is a bit scary at the limits!

    (PS - the other reason the Tesla will not shellac ICE sportscars on racetrack comparos is that acceleration drops off notably after 60/70 mph. So the more long sections of the track, the more the Tesla will be at a disadvantage. Tesla's should compare well at tracks like Infineon but compare more poorly at fast tracks like Laguna Seca. The undersized brakes will compound this problem)
    Comparison: 2010 Tesla Roadster Sport vs 2011 Porsche Boxster


    Or this owner:

    The rear weight bias will mean the rear will be twitchy near the limit. I'm guessing that's why Tesla ships with some rather extreme understeer. Frankly, I found the understeer as it comes from the factory so extreme that I actually consider it unsafe, at least for the way I drive the car. I have enough track experience to be able to balance the oversteer if it starts to come on. At least I think so. I've been told by a Tesla rep that the extreme torque of the electric drive, if driven with TC turned off, can induce sudden rear wheel spin and near instant oversteer (spin out). With the sway bar change, this danger will be increased. I'll play with this in a safe place to see what I experience.




    I hope you will reconsider your original assertion and when comparing the Roadster to other "Supercars" please start with it's now retired beautiful sister :) As someone who has driven both I can say how the two performed in contrast to each other.

    Which one would I rather own? The Telsa of course which is why I ordered one in the first place. The fun-aspect of the electric motor was amazing and I hope you will have a chance to experience the acceleration-joy soon.
     
  9. georgekessel

    georgekessel Member

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    Daniel I really enjoy your points, you are very knowledgeable and I again commend you for actions. I wanted the Tesla because I thought it was more eco friendly than it actually is, and because it is so much fun to drive. There were other reasons too, but the more I learned the more I realized it wasn't what I thought it was. I still was going to buy it, but now I feel releif that I didn't.

    When I was talking about the large carbon imprint of the Telsa, I didn't take into account their European or overseas deliveries. Since those Roadsters are flown in from the UK, then perhaps flown back to the UK (or other destinations) for delivery, the imprint is much higher than I first stated. I will cross my fingers and hope that they aren't flying these Roadsters all around the globe :(
     
  10. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    First, I don't think that it has yet been proven to the general public that electric cars aren't just over-hyped golf carts.
    I regularly meet people that had never heard of a Tesla.
    One guy pulled up next to me and asked me what kind of car it was. I told him It was a Tesla, all electric. He looked disappointed and replied "oh, so it's slow then.". Then the light turned green and he found out that wasn't the case:D
    Getting word out about electric cars is a job not yet complete, but it has started:)
    As for the GHG emissions, I agree with you, it is a point to ponder. But to do so rationally you need context.
    How many GHG emissions are produced in the construction of an ICE that will move you 0-60 in 3.9 or 3.7 seconds? Then add the smelting and manufacturing of the rest of the vehicle.
    Then compare that to the GHG you mentioned give you some context.
    As said before, if you want no GHG emissions a bike or NEV would better suite your wants.
     
  11. georgekessel

    georgekessel Member

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    You bring up some very valid points. The one about the 0-60 time though is where I feel differently. A car shouldn't just be judged on one particular trait. If we focused on top speed then the 120mph limit would make the Tesla on par or lower than the new Honda hybrid sports cars. If we focused on handling other cars would win etc.. 0-60 is important but so is top speed, braking and handling when it comes to judging a sports car.

    Otherwise I completely agree with you. However Lotus says they only air-ship their "time sensitive" deliveries unlike Tesla. So if you bought a sea-shipped 2011 Lotus (which they also say is now 16% more eco than last year), and then donated $50-70k to Carbonfund.org you'd have a heck of a car and be incredibly carbon positive for eternity :) Hope you understand that this is supposed to be humorous not something I actually think is a realistic action.
     
  12. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    For me, 0-60 is the most important stat as it is the one I experience.
    Anytime I pass someone, merge onto a highway, etc I use the acceleration. I NEVER drive 120mph or faster, and the handling is far better than anything else I have driven.

    I'll hold my 'greener' opinion until I can actually see some comparisons (if you have any links please share).

    Of course, the energy independence from foreign oil is a big plus as well;)
     
  13. georgekessel

    georgekessel Member

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    Yes it would be if the Roadster wasn't flown over using thousands of gallons of foreign oil. Is Lithium from South America?

    We could just be trading one dependency for another. Ideally we need a new battery technology that can be made using domestic materials.
     
  14. georgekessel

    georgekessel Member

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    I made a suggestion to Elon Musk today, I think it is a viable way to solve the carbon creation concerns of the Roadster:

    Thank you for taking the time to email me. I am sorry that things didn’t work out and I wish you nothing but success with your Tesla venture. I hope you don’t mind me making one suggestion though. Even if it is the same cost to send the vehicles by air from England as it is for Sea, it would be much more “eco-friendly” to send them by Sea. If your concern is delivery dates you could offer the customer two choices;

    a) Express air delivery of your vehicle
    b) Eco-delivery of your vehicle (takes an extra 30-45 days)

    This way the consumer would have the choice, and it could help increase their overall satisfaction. Even if most people select option A, it moves the carbon-creation of that choice to them rather than having it be part of your company’s carbon creation.
     
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  15. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    I like that idea. I gather that future Tesla cars will be made in the U.S.
     
  16. Fsn

    Fsn New Member

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  17. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    Used cooking oils and fats are used for animal feed so are not normally sent to land fill. Used cooking oil for fuel is no better than corn ethanol. Both corn and fats can be fed to animals.
     
  18. bb0wn

    bb0wn New Member

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    Would've shipped it to you for $500 if that's what broke the deal :D. Better luck next time, I suppose.
     
  19. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    I didn't realize that used fry oil was fed to animals in the U.S. I do know that when the first folks started running cars on used fry oil, the fast-food places let them have it for nothing because previously they were paying to have it hauled away, and I just assumed it was being hauled to the dump.