Editorial: A Blind Squirrel Finds His Nut

You spent a lot of time tearing down that meandering, illogical rant. I read it when it first came out, and I couldn't see his point. Everything good about the Prius seemed to be followed up with "So what?" as if that somehow negated reality.

 

Great story, thanks for taking time to explain that ridiculous "masterpiece" from DeMoron oops DeMorro !!

 

I admit upfront I am not familiar (except for today) with Christopher DeMorro or Gas 2.0.

But just a quick glance at a few of his offerings and he seems to have a unbalanced viewpoint of Toyota.

I find it interesting that he levels insult and criticism at The Prius v, as being late, and not particularly interesting as a larger hybrid. But looks at the VW concept vehicle "Bulli" and applauds it for it's being a "larger" EV people mover. Based as far as I can tell primarily on the fact that his girl friend evidently is impressed. The flaws of the EV concept as presented get dismissed or discounted by not comparing to products like Prius, Volt, Leaf, but by comparing it to the original VW vans of the 60's and 70's...

Odd that he would be willing to give so much leeway and rah, rah support for a concept people mover EV, unmarketed from VW, BUT similarly describes the Prius v a product that is being produced and actually can be purchased, as a product he can't imagine anyone would want?

 

<3 Prius chat.

Yes its me. Chris. DeMorro. The guy whose name is forever associated with that college-level catastrophe of a piece that, 4 years later, nobody still gets.

You can sing the praises of 50 mpg all you want, but your car still uses nickel-hydride batteries, is imported from Japan, and sources parts from around the world. When first introduced, the Prius had a combined MPG (in America) of 42 mpg. 10 years later, it is all of 50 mpg. Is that really good enough for your Prius faithful? Because I expected more.

I also expected more of Toyota than a 5-seat Prius with all of 50% more cargo room. Why do Japan and Europe get a 7-seat Prius V option? And a lithium-ion battery? Is one extra seat and more cargo room that exciting?

Toyota built and sold a million Prius hybrids at a time when most automakers were focusing on selling profitable SUV's. Even Toyota cashed in (Land Cruiser? 4Runner? Tundra???) Now, all of the sudden, every automaker is refocused on fuel efficiency, electric cars, and other alternative fuels, and at the Detroit Auto Show I saw some awesome, exciting reveals like the Ford C-Max and Focus Electric and the Porsche hybrid and Mercedes F-cell hydrogen vehicle. Toyota has to step its game up or risk falling behind. They need something big. Really big.

And Toyota reveals...a five-seat minivan, a 13-mile plug-in, and a concept that they rolled out to stage on a motorized cube?

Yawn.

If that kind of stuff gets you excited, then my statement about you guys being boring rings ever-more-true. I grew up around loud muscle cars and race tracks. I mowed the lawns of people who owned entire collections of exotic cars. I've helped build real race cars and I've blown up engines. In other words, I like my cars exciting. And I think green cars CAN be exciting. That's why I want to convert my '69 Cougar to propane, and I'm saving my pennies to hopefully put a down payment on an electric motorcycle. That way I can dust all my gas-guzzling buddies and show them green is cool.

The Prius is, in my ever-so-humble-opinion, its own worst enemy. When a car guy wants to make an argument against fuel efficiency or alternative fuels, they just have to nod at the nearest Prius. It's boring. It's ugly. It's slow. And that stigma rubs off on every green car. It makes the job of selling green cars much harder, because the car buying public thinks anything with good gas mileage has to be ugly and boring.

Luckily Ford, Porsche, and yes even Nissan are working to erase that stigma with new cars and concepts. I would sell everything I own right now to put a down payment on a production version of the Nissan ESFLOW, a rear-wheel drive, electric sports car. The Nissan Leaf? No thanks. Porsche Panamera S Hybrid? (380 combined horsepower, 35 mpg). You betcha. Prius? Not in this lifetime.

I want green cars to be exciting, interesting, and fun for people concerned with more than saving the world or fuel efficiency. I want to convince the guys I build engines with, and race at the track, that going green doesn't mean sacrificing performance or fun. Toyota makes my job harder when, instead of taking ten years to make the Prius more efficient and more powerful and less ugly, they give it one extra seat and more cargo room that it already needed.

Wow. Cutting edge stuff.

The Prius is the best selling hybrid in the world, and as such, it sets the standard for other hybrids. It is synonymous with the word hybrid and also, boring. And until such a time as the Prius is either dethroned as the world's best-selling hybrid, or until Toyota releases a hybrid that is attractive and fun-to-drive, I will keep lampooning and pushing for the Prius to be something better than it already is.

Sorry, 50 mpg just doesn't cut it for me at a time when European diesels are able to get 60 mpg equivalent with more horsepower and more fun.

That said, fire away with your Haterade and your comments and picking apart my pieces. I learned back in 2007 that, if I am going to write about cars, people are going to disagree. They're going to attack my character. If I cared, I'd still be mowing lawns for a living (I still would like to do an emissions-free landscaping company some day though).

But I liked Russell's piece. I like debate. I like intelligent discourse. I like making people think. Don't take it personally though Prius owners. Take me to task, don't let me off easy, and point out my mistakes. It makes me a better writer.

As for Toyota, tt's tough being on top, and people are always looking to knock you down. Stay strong Prius owners. Chin up. And know that at the end of the day, my American-made Wrangler is STILL greener than your world-sourced Prius

 

Welcome to PC. Kind of a corny 1st post though. Trollesque, but what the heck, I'll bite. oh . . . I get it . . . your a fan of GM's $41,000 - "premium gas only" - 4 seater 37mpg volt. Yawn. Why didn't you just SAY so. Sorry, but Toyota won't rush to market (the way post bankrupt GM did) their PHEV offering. Notice also, they didn't LIE about what it will do.
Um . . . you think folks here already forgot the 230mpg nonsence? It's even a DIRTIER/smog polluting vehicle than the prius ... even WITH its (hard to achieve) 40 EV miles. wow ... talk about missing the boat. Since no one has been able to beat the Prius' practical formula, your bashing is over rated.

 

This bozo is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

Both those man enough to drive a Prius in the daylight hours and those of him needing to compensate for apparent shortcomings are bound by the fact that neither a hummer nor his jeep are greener than the Prius.

I stand for efficiency and reliability. There, I am out of the closet.

 

And where did you get this expectation? What vehicle has increased that much in power, size, and fuel efficiency in less than ten years?

Well, maybe you'll be satisfied with the Prius C, if and when it comes out. But I doubt it, because it will still be a Prius. Meanwhile, lusting after cars that aren't sold here doesn't make much sense.

 

Well you do realize that "ugly" and "boring" are personally subjective? Over a million people evidently find Prius good looking enough and exciting enough- to own one.

Your contention that Toyota needs to "step it up"? Flawed. Just stop and think. You're comparing what Toyota IS currently marketing, and has marketed to great success, with concept cars, and "potential" vehicles.

The presence of these "concept" vehicles is testament to the fact that Toyota is the leader being pursued, NOT evidence that Toyota has fallen behind.

As "hopefully" some of these vehicles actually manifest on the market, I would hope that it does spur improvement and advancement throughout the entire alternative automobile segment, including all Hybrids and Electrics...

But my advice would be, don't get too excited about a flashy "reveal" at an auto show. Compare products that you can actually go to a dealership and purchase and far and away Toyota is the leader.

While most other manufacturers are carefully circling the wading pool, with single models, or very limited release products, Toyota has a decade of leadership and over a Million Hybrids sold. Now that IMO is leadership and excitement..without smoke and mirrors.

 

I expected more. Not with the Prius. It is one of the best all around cars available. It's the other Toyota hybrids I find lacking in terms of fuel economy.

The Lexi which share some design with the Prius are at 35 and 42mpg. Nearly every hybrid that a consumer would cross shop with the Prius falls in that fuel economy range. An article on how convential cars are catching up to hybrids in fuel economy gets poo poo'd here, but guess what, they are.

The Prius has set an high bar, but it is actually the exception of available hybrids. The other guys have come to the hybrid party late, have been unwilling or unable to invest in them, and/or didn't want to get tangled in the patent issues. Yet they have competetive hybrids available. Nothing to compete with the Prius now, but neither does Toyota.

 

I think the writer is trying to make this point: future Prius models need to be judged by a higher standard than other cars.

Am I right?

 

they do? which ones? Jetta TDI makes 34 MPG combined... and Prius gets 47% better combined mileage than it.

You are not impressed with 47% better results than TDI?

It should be what... 70% better? 3x better? 10x better... wait no, they should pay you for the gas!

 

Which other Toyota hybrids specifically?

The HiHy is a large-ish SUV that makes no aerodynamic improvements nor much in the way of performance sacrifices vs the non-hybrid version but still makes some improvement in mpg, especially in the city.

The HyCam: same story. Too much power most of the time, thus wasting too much to match Prius. Same aero as normal Camry.

The Lexus hybrids on the whole add luxury, weight, power, style. Not focused on aero or efficiency as much.

Toyota knows how to improve the Prius. The c will excel in town since smaller, lighter. The v sacrifices mpg for extra size. The PHV will cut down warm up penalty in a major way.

They could improve the aero alot (see aerocivic), but until someone else pushes that angle with commercial success, how can they afford to add a boattail for example?

Sure some are nipping at the highway mpg of Prius. Heck, use advanced techniques and any mid-size with a tall MT can get Prius-like highway numbers. But the persistence of its city/combined lead is amazing.

 

Um...isn't diesel 60 MPG in Europe based on :
- The LITER volume of an American gallon (which is smaller) versus an UK gallon (which is higher)
- Diesel has more energy (roughly 20% more) density per volume
- Manual versus Automatic transmission?

Making hard to compare properly. Diesels cost more to own and maintain, and will always pollute worse no matter the 'clean' tech used.

Plus, more exiting hybrids with outstanding looks & performance, like Hyundai's or Lexus. I just test drove the Lexus CT200h today and my G3 Prius feels 'drab' in comparison.

At least Toyota & Lexus have put high performance hybrids in every segment at decent price points.

The reliability and boring argument against Toyota & Honda has been around since 1985.
Fact : any American car bought after 1985, kept 5 years with 100,000 miles on it, was in it's sixth year nearly junk. Yet for Toyota & Honda those same cars were merely at 50% of their lifespan.

Since we don't live on racetracks, what's the point of owning an expensive car with 200+ HP's?
Getting from A to B economically and reliably over a decade is more important to the 'average' consumer.

IOW, how often does one change their fridge & stove? Washer & drier?

I argue with anyone my Prius against their current car, dollars & cents, that my car is the better deal. The issue of pollution doesn't even come up.

Though it's harder to argue a Prius against a Matrix, both keep near 50% of their value after 5 years and other than oil changes, the Matrix is still cheaper to own with T.C.O. if you drive less than 20,000 miles per year.

So by Chris Demorro's standards / POV, the Matrix is uninspiring, slow, boring?
To me it's the car I "almost" bought - I test drove both and honestly liked the Prius better, because I like bells & whistles. Not because of the 0-100MPH time.

 

Yes welcome! Critical input is of course useful.

Where do all the raw materials & parts in your car come from? How much nickel is in it?

I'm just curious, what do those 60mpg European diesels average for FE monthly, yearly, day in and day out driving in all conditions?

I fully agree that Toyota needs to step up the game - why wouldn't anyone want that? But what I want may not match what you want.
Bring a Hybrid minivan like they've had in Japan for years. Bring more fun styling, sure, as long as Cd isn't sacrificed. Bring even higher FE but do it right. I can wait. Like many I loved the idea of the Volt, but not so much the reality. I'll wait for better. Meanwhile my 2007 Prius WON'T LET me get less than 43MPG per tank now matter how poorly I'm driving this winter. "Normal" is more like 48mpg.
Considering it has displaced about 30K miles worth of 18mpg driving in our other car over the past 2 years I'm pretty satisfied.

- D

 

Maybe in Canada, but probably not in the U.S., from what I can tell. Edmunds.com estimates five-year TCO of base auto 2010 Matrix at $31,619, 2010 Toyota Prius II at $31,891 with 15,000 miles driven per year. The situation was even better for me because their financing and taxation assumptions are too high, and I predict their fuel savings will be too low. Motor Trend estimates TCO to be roughly the same over five years as well ($24,777 for manual Matrix versus $25,128 for Prius II). Granted, these are just estimates.

 

OK we get the point, you like the offerings from the Det3 and the UAW. That's your choice and your opinion. I've been involved in international business for 40+ yrs and I see the entire world as 'my world'. You have your opinion and I have mine. IMO nationalism has no place in business.

The following paragraphs show that you have only a writer's view of business, not one who has actually sold products to real buyers. If you had such experience then you would know that a company does business for one reason alone, to increase the wealth of the owners/shareholders, and it does this by selling products that the buyers will actually buy.

Herebelow at least you admit your bias...but so what. You're viewing this from an enthusiast's limited perspective, not from a business person's perspective. What sells more and makes more money? The Prius or the combined sales of Mustangs, Camaros and Challengers?

Making and selling vehicles is a business venture, not a beauty pagaent. If you want ooohs, ahhhhs, blue ribbons and crowns go to the Miss Universe pagaent. If you're discussing vehicles then go to financial statements[yawn].

This sounds like a 14 y.o.'s report about the wonders of watching the Miss America Pagaent for the first time.

The last few paragraphs are filled with unsubstantiated fluff ( Wrangler ), one Det 3 enthusiat's minority opinion and a general lack of understanding about business. All of these views are the 'WHY' behind the question 'How has the American auto industry fallen so fast and so quickly?'

 

Pretty accurate^^^

The Prius at $23500 and the Matrix at $20500 are essentially a wash over 5 yrs / 15000 miles in terms of TCO. The Matrix is the non-hybrid Prius or conversely the Prius is the hybrid Matrix. Take your pick.

However over a longer ownership period or in times of sharply escalating fuel prices the Prius is a clear winner in terms of costing less to own and drive.

 

So if both are equal after 5 years / 75,000 miles, I rather own a Prius than a Matrix, not having to worry about equipment failure and using half the gas.

Speaking from experience too, this is my second Prius and my 5th Toyota.