Riled about rail: Why all the anger over high speed trains?

My state has snapped up the Wisconsin and Ohio money, and is making a bid for the Florida money.

 

I would rather it had come to California, but since it didn't, congratulations:cheer2: Washington state is also a good place for it.

 

What security? There isn't security BS on the train. You just get on. Even when going to/from Canada the security is less than what you go through at the airport for a domestic flight.

You didn't factor in the turnpike tolls, which is another $10 rt. So now you're at $8 + $15 + $10 = $33 before fuel. Note that Holiday Inn quotes $30 for 24h at the midtown location on their website.

From South Jersey the train to NYC is $34 ($3 for light rail to Trenton + $31 TRE-NYP, all rt). This will generally be a longer trip, though. Maybe an hour or so, depending on connection times and traffic.

However as you indicate at the end of your post, when you have multiple people, it's hard for the economics to work out in favor of the train (though if you stay 2 days and have to pay $60 for parking, that does change things!).

But multiple people in a car isn't the real problem that we have, and no one (rational) is arguing that we need to get rid of cars. It's single-occupancy cars that are the problem.

 

on the other hand, my daughter comes home from ny every couple weeks and she almost always takes the train. being alone, getting a seat is no problem. she does pay the extra hundred for the acela because eethe regional is just lame if you're going all the way through. but we have to drive to the station here to pick her up and drop her off.

 

Relax. Take a chill pill. Skruse is probably closer to the truth than you are.
You'd be surprised how many people haven't been on an airplane, multiply that by about 10 to get the number of people who've never been on a train.

I've taken Amtrack once, I've taken the local commuter train about 3 or 4 times. By contrast, I've been on a plane dozens of times. But I'm upper middle class and have done a fair bit of traveling (34 states and 6-7 countries so far). By far I've done most of my travels and commutes by car. (Then comes walking and bicycling).

Plus, you're proving skruse's point, by pointing out how large and noisy a train is, a lot of people think it's old-school and not efficient/effective because of that.

Again, I think you're speaking from your own perspective, or maybe from a different time period. I think most people with model train sets are baby boomers, not kids. (Disregarding the cheap plastic toys for toddlers). Think of the visitors to airplane museums (Smithsonian air&space, Dayton, etc.) the multitude of car museums, and compare that to train museums.

Trains just don't get much attention nowadays.

Agreed. Here in Chicago they aren't synchronized with buses at all, and it's only for going in and out of the city, not for suburb-to-suburb commuting (unless those two suburbs are on the same line going into the city).

We're going to run into peak coal if we start using it for transportation. They like to quote how we have a century of coal supply, but that's assuming today's production rates. Let's say there's growth of 4-5% a year, that reduces our supply by at least a decade. Use it to replace petroleum on a large scale (assuming production rates can ramp up that high), and we'd be running out of cheap coal very soon.

$20/gallon is pretty high for gasoline, I think as 2008 shows, our economy would go into a tailspin before that happens. If it does go up to $20, then we've had some serious devaluation/inflation. Also, in ten years we'll probably start having some reasonable bio-fuel options (better than corn ethanol), and hopefully a decent infrastructure for natural gas powered vehicles, and some percentage of electric cars for commuters. But I'd say $6/gallon is certainly reasonable in the next 5 years.

 

First large SUV I thought of was the Dodge Durango, so I looked it up - the 2011 has a 24.6 gallon tank (and they're touting all their fuel efficiency technology used, so it gets 14/20 mpg for the V8, and an almost reasonable 23 mpg hwy for the V6).

 

I've found West Coast trains to be much better than the general Amtrak complaints imply. The Cascades, from Vancouver BC to Eugene OR, uses a unique tilting train that suits the topography quite well. The geography of the area pretty much rules out any TGV-style routes or speed, but it's nice to hear a good thing might get even better. Too bad it has to come at the expense of rail improvements elsewhere.

Less than at airports, perhaps, but far more than there used to be. You have to purchase a ticket well in advance, and show your passport to pick it up. At the station, there are scanners for both people and luggage, drug-sniffing dogs, and no shortage of well-armed guards. The train itself is caged off from the rest of the station; accessed only through the security gate. There's no question that passengers are well aware they're entering another culture. Funny, I meant to say country. Hmm. I think I'll leave that one uncorrected.

 

Blimey you're all completely anti train on here. I'd have thought there'd be quite a few intelligent Prius owners who'd also be in favour of high speed rail.

Check out the following UK link for details of our proposed HSR link. We are almost embarrassed here for only having 60 miles of HSR whereas Europe (mainly France and Germany) has thousands of miles of it. It's looked on as a long term future transport system, hopefully independent of the ups and downs of oil.

High Speed Rail UK

 

Not me. I've loved trains since I was old enough to stand up and watch them out the window. They're efficient for moving goods and people, and are far more relaxing to travel by than driving or flying. But the situation in North America is entirely different than in Europe. With the exception of a few relatively small areas, there simply isn't the population density necessary to support the investment. It takes a week or more to cross either Canada or the USA by car, and most of the time the view is devoid of buildings. Cross-country rail travel in Canada has become a luxury land cruise. The last time I priced out a return trip to visit the rellies on the other coast, we bought a car instead. There are commuter trains within cities that work very well, but high speed trains between cities are not likely to be reality anytime soon. Everything's built for automobiles.

 

Philosophically, I should be in favor of the trains, but:
1. Limited rerouting flexibility, especially on high-speed track.
2. Vulnerable to sabotage.
3. Doesn't down-scale well.

I think Ike was wise to emasculate the railroads with the national highway system.

Based on my experience:

DC to NYC: Train wins.

As a Prius guy, I'm baffled by efforts to electrify existing rights-of-way. Diesel-electric locomotives are the paradigm of hybrid transportation. Sure, you have to tote the weight of the fuel around with you, but engines are SUPPOSED to be heavy. That's where they get the traction to pull all those cars. And at today's costs for copper, steel and aluminum, I can't see the payback ever happening.

 

My experience was quite different, and I just did it a couple weeks ago, but on the other side of the country.. or countries, I suppose.

I'm not aware of an advance purchase requirement, though it is of course highly recommended by the railway. I've purchased domestic tickets right before the train left but haven't tried that for an international trip.

Only needed to show photo ID to pickup tickets (and no ID needed if purchased/printed at a kiosk, but of course ID is needed to cross the border). The crew does make sure you have a valid passport before boarding, but that's mainly because they don't want to have to leave anyone at the crossing.

There were not scanners at Montreal Gare Centrale or NY Penn Station. I didn't check luggage so do not know if that is scanned, but it looked like they were just putting it on a cart and then taking it to the platform to load. The trains were treated the same as any other, ticket required to go on the platform.

Odd that it seems to differ so much.

 

Wow, what kind of place do you live in? Is this for crossing the U.S./Canada border? That might explain the passport and other issues. Back in 2003 when I was last on the train, there was virtually none of that. No dogs, no security gates, no metal detectors, nobody looking at your luggage. Just get your ticket and walk to the train. People seeing you off could walk to the train with you.

I am in favor, my negative comments were mostly about the local commuter trains. Here in Chicago we have the Ell (which is actually underground at parts) on its own tracks, then we have the Metra which runs to the farther suburbs on lines shared with freight trains on occasion (set up with a center and spokes), then there's the city buses. And they all run independently with little thought about connecting up nicely, or allowing easy commuting between the spokes of the Metra without going to the city center and back out again. And many routes aren't run at all on weekends.

So for commuting purposes, it leaves a lot to be desired. That's the current state of things. It could be improved quite a bit, and definitely for inter-city or inter-state travel, high-speed rail makes a lot of sense. But what we have now is a long way from a fully functioning system. It's also expensive. Last I checked, there's no price incentive to use a train vs. an airplane, forget about a sleeper car. Trains give you a lot more legroom and the ability to walk around whenever you want, and a separate eating car, but the current ones take a long time to get where they're going. Their average speed is a bit under 50 mph, when you consider stops and slowdowns for bad stretches of rail. Our so-called version of high-speed rail, the Acela on the east coast, goes an average of 63 mph on good days.

So my main point was that the current state of things leaves a lot to be desired. The rest of the world is far ahead of us, and it's not just because of the distances involved.

 

The problem with a lot of commuter systems now is that they are hub/spoke, but the hub is no longer the only jobs center in the region, as many companies have relocated to the suburbs. So you have a lot of suburb-suburb commutes but no easy way to do it via mass transit.

It's extremely difficult to coordinate buses since they are so easily influenced by traffic. Having to stop at one additional traffic light can change the schedule by minutes.

 

What kind of place do I live in? All this was trying to get in to the US.

Things have changed since 2003 - it's a different world. As teenagers, we used to pile in the car and head over the border for the weekend. I don't think most of us even had ID, and as long as the contraband was out of view, we had no worries. The nice man with the gun asked if we were all Canadians and said "Welcome. Have fun."

Now, I have to be careful not to even walk through any pot smoke on the way, lest one of the nice doggies with the big teeth sits down beside me in lineup and I'm hauled away for questioning and probing of various orifices. The passport, I understand. The war zone setup is a bit much. And my name's not even on the list.

On the way back last October, a pleasant fellow with a thick Scottish brogue asked me how long I'd been away, what I purchased, and a couple of questions about the car. I'm home.

 

yeah but if you loose what your $1000 would be good for? fill the tank?

 

I agree, though I'm not entirely sure what it is. There seems to be an inherent mistrust of foreigners, and the drug trade has made border crossing more difficult for everyone. Things like trusted traveller cards (NEXUS, SENTRI) help, but only for people who travel frequently.

Getting the thread somewhat back on track...my point was that crossing the border by train isn't necessarily any easier than by any other method.

As for rail travel not being more prevalent, high speed or otherwise, I think it has a great deal to do with funding. We seem to have lots of public money for roads, but railways are somehow expected to pay their own way. How about we charge everybody the full cost of their travel, by whatever means they choose, and we fund the modes accordingly?

 

You do know they caught the AlQaida guy with the car full of explosives right up there at the Canada/USA Pacific NW border, right? He was headed for the LA Olympics....

 

don't get me wrong, i'm in favor of all types of mass transportation. but they have to be more popular than driving. i would hate to see gas prices force people onto rail, then, there is no incentive for the transport people to improve things. you need competition, albeit on a level playing field.

 

You were not aware of electric trains, which can be powered by any non-fossil energy source? Google it. Also note that oil is very little used any more in electric power stations in the US. You're welcome :_>

From looking at trends. In 20 years it will either be uneconomical or outright illegal to use coal as fuel in any form, because by then the damage caused by global warming will have become horribly obvious.