Why the slow evolution of "conventional" gas-electric hybrid technology

Why don't you keep the politics for FHoP? It seems all you post about now is politics and your anti-climate change views. Sorry to be so harsh.

 

I think it is simply an ROI issue.

The major downfall of the Prius and just about every ICE driven car is the 8-15mpg you get under moderate acceleration.

To bump this to 25 or more you are looking at an engine that is as expensive as a hybrid system total. So...are you willing to pay another 5k+ for 10mpg?

The other solution, more battery for more motor power equals about the same cost.

 

Toyota and Ford own the rights to make hybrids using the current incarnation of the power split device.

Nissan licensed it until recently. Other car mfgs would have to license the design from Toyota or Ford.

Honda has a hybrid design that doesn't work as well. But you get 80% of the fuel saving performance for 80% of the cost. So not a bad deal.

GM has a hybrid design currently used in the Volt. But you get 75% of the fuel saving performance for 150% of the cost.

Volvo was part of Ford until recently, but Ford at that time was not going to turn a profit selling a hybrid Volvo.

Sounds like what you are saying is "why can't someone make the thing that I want for the price I want to pay." Well you can have what you want if you pay enough for it. You can engineer and design your own vehicle. You could buy two vehicles and mash and tweak it until it is what you want.

Companies have to make business decisions and turn profits. Until then it's a bunch of whine.

 

The Atkinson cycle is about the most efficient gas engine with present materials. There will be little BSFC ( brake specific fuel consumption ) improvement. The weight of the 5 passenger highway cruising Prius can not be lowered much without exotic ( carbon fiber ) materials that do not currently lend themselves to mass production. The Prius has a very low drag Cd. That's the skinny.
The HVB battery and type is relatively UNIMPORTANT in a ICE-hybrid. Lithium, etc. will be little improvement. The HVB need only be relatively efficient, small and RELIABLE. Larger HVBs are not needed. The idea of gas electric hybrids has been around a l-o-n-g time. The main TRW ( ? ) patent is from 1984. Toyota engineered it and put it together with software. Turn on the HVAC on a 95 d. summer day and kiss even 60 mpg. goodbye. Toyota got it right in the beginning. Technology drives an industry. That's why most air liners look alike.

 

Add Subaru to the list as they traded access to their battery technology for a license to use the Toyota HSD. Then again, there is no sign that they plan to produce a hybrid in the near future.

JeffD

 

That place has never been accessible by myself. Anyway, I was just responding to the implication made by the quoted poster.

 

I think you have to request to be allowed in. I visited for a bit but it's kinda nutty in there so I haven't been back.

 

As political forums tend to become. Also, not having a hivemind on a topic (climate change, formerly bandied about by alarmists as global warming...and I only expressed doubt on man's involvement in what can just as easily be shown to relate to natural climate cycles, fluctuations in sun activity, etc.) should not be an automatic negative point of contention. The potential for corruption and collusion on a major scale is no less than that of the energy giants. The keys are just being handed to those who are pretending to save (aka "control") us: Rothschild Australia and E3 International to take the lead in the global carbon trading market « Follow The Money

Soz, you accused me of being anti-climate change when I was anything but...just skeptical of the cause being bandied about by organizations with an interest in the revenue creation afforded by carbon credits (while China and India continue unabated).

 

IIRC, the Prius injects fuel into the inlet.
Wouldn't injection directly into the cylinders permit increased efficiency?

 

Well, let's look at 11 years of progress. 2001 Prius vs. 2012 Prius v.

Combined Power: 98 hp -> 134 hp
Fuel Economy: 41 MPG -> 42 MPG (combined)
Passenger Volume: 89 ft3 -> 97 ft3
Cargo Volume: 12 ft3 -> 34 ft3
Emission: SULEV (both)

 

Probably not much. The Atkinson cycle churns up the mixture pretty thoroughly and the engine is already operating close to it's ideal thermodynamic efficiency. There may be some problems with direct injection and the Atkinson cycle but I'm not sure. Direct injection increases power and gets around pre-ignition somewhat but power is not what the Atkinson cycle is about. It's one of the lowest ICE power per pound of engine schemes. It's one of the highest power per pound of fuel. Only gigantic low rpm marine diesels with enormous exhaust heat recovery systems do much better. The Atkinson is competitive with the small automotive TDIs on a fuel BTU basis. While everybody is scrambling for 40-60 mpg. performance, you Prius owners with a little effort, have had a 50 mpg. car for 8 years since the 2004 Gen II !!

 

Upon further research, Mazda is coming out with a 2.0 liter DGI ( direct gas injection ) Mazda 6 that operates as an Atkinson sometimes and not others. It's rumored to get 40 mpg. highway.

 

It would be great if it incorporates Mazda's i-Stop system.

 

$$$$$$
The Prius costs $4000-$5000 more(20-25%) than an equivalent ICE car.
It gets roughly 70% better city mpg than an equivalent spark ignition ICE only

It is awfully good.

The only significant way to get better city FE is to make it battery powered so it can use "house electricity" which is maybe 33% of the cost of gasoline or diesel.

There isn't much potential left to make a better -more efficient-ICE.
Cheaper to go partial electric-since electricity is so cheap(but batteries are so expensive-but getting cheaper).

The 2004 Prius is just TOO good.
It is why it is pointless to bother with small-expensive- TDs.It is why Honda is suffering-the Prius is just TOO GOOD.
Toyota hit a Grand Slam- just can't be improved much without giving it plug in capability.Maybe using a small TD would help- but it would cost maybe $3000 more,so why bother?Just put in a big BP ,charger system and an extension cord.
Charlie

PS The Volt is a good idea- but 3800 lbs hurts FE-expensive also.GM eventually will make it directly driven by the ICE for better Hy FE.-like their two mode

 

Electricity for plug-ins at $0.12 /kwh yields a cost of about $ 0.03 / mile for a 250 w-hr./mile car like a Prius, $ 0.05 / mile at $ 0.20/kwh. Gas at $ 3.50 /gal for a 50 mpg. Prius is $ 0.07 / mil. So electricity is almost 2/3 the cost of gas before you put the road taxes on electricity. Cheapness is not going to be the selling point of EVs.