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Gen I HV battery (bad cell) repair/replace options?

Discussion in 'Newbie Forum' started by infohound2001, Jan 30, 2012.

  1. infohound2001

    infohound2001 Junior Member

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    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius Plug-in
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    Plug-in Base
    My Gen I Prius gave me the red triangle of death and the "check engine" light. I could still drive it, but those warnings are intimidating, so I had it towed to the dealer, who informed me that:

      • the HV battery has a bad cell and needs replacing, ($ 3400 incl labor)
      • the aux battery is weak, ($276)
      • the battery ECU may need replacing ($1500)
      Both environmentally and financially it doesn't seem right to have to replace the entire HV due to a single bad cell (#7). I've seen reference to a procedure from Jim Gatzke of Toyota's National Alternative Fuel Vehicle Service and Support group by which HV batteries can be reconditioned by replacing the bad cell(s) by ones with similar chemistry, but the dealer knows nothing of that. Does that exist?

      In San Francisco a hybrid-specialty garage (Luscious Garage) sells & installs replacement Gen I HV batteries composed of Gen II cells.If I have to replace the entire HV battery, I'd rather get newer battery technology. But I'm a non-auto-savvy non-DIY person, so I don't know what I absolutely need to have the dealership do before I take the Prius on the road again. (When the red triangle came on, car had only hesitated on accelerating a few times, but other than that it drove just fine. But the dealership claims that if I don't do all the work above, the car is likely to just stop suddenly. I am skeptical.).

      So here are my questions:
      1. Could a Toyota dealership recondition the HV battery, or will they only replace, even if only one cell is bad?
      2. Should I try to replace my aux battery by the Optima deep-discharge battery I see advertised (on elearnaid.com)?
      3. Is the Luscious Garage's gen-II-cell HV battery a good idea?
      4. What's the minimum the dealership would need to do to get me back to driving while I figure out the "right" solutions for each of the batteries?
      thanks,
      InfoHound2001
      -----------
      2001 Prius (147K miles, 10.7 yrs old)
      2004 Prius ( 97K miles, converted to a plug-in, driven by DH)
     
  2. jdenenberg

    jdenenberg EE Professor

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    Luscious Garage is a good outfit with many positive reviews in the discussion groups. If you ge a rebuilt HV battery, it will come with a working ECU so that is not an issue (your dealer uses your existing ECU in a "New" battery). I put a ReInVolt rebuilt battery into my 2004 Prius 21,000 miles ago for $2000 installed. There has been a small price increase since then so your price may be a bit higher. I like getting a rebuilt one over a New one as the newer battery modules (from later model Prii) are more robust than the ones in your 2001 HV battery.

    It is possible to do a replacement of a couple of modules to just get going. The dealer will not do this, but Luscious Garage may be willing to do it. It is not likely to keep you going for too long. An improved procedure is to re-balance all of your existing modules, but this takes time and you may as well replace all of them with rebalanced later model modules as is done in a rebuild.

    The Optima is a better choice than the OE 12v battery. The one at eLearnAid (with the adapter kit) is fine. There is also a version of that battery that has the smaller terminals used in Japan (and our Prii) that is available at the Optima site (sorry, the DS46B24R is $200 list price there) that doesn't need an adapter kit.

    JeffD
     
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  3. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    Get your car to Luscious. They install batteries assembled by Ted out of Healdsburg, 707 694-4092. You could deal with him directly as well. If you are worried, have it towed to either location, but it should make it.

    You do not need a battery ECU. You may need the wiring harness.

    Batteries Plus has started carrying a Gen 1 12V replacement made by Rayovac. It is probably cheaper than the dealer or elearnaid.

    The dealership is the most expensive route for everything. The will not replace a bad cell, it is against Toyota policy to do so.
     
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  4. infohound2001

    infohound2001 Junior Member

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    I am very glad to hear that Luscious Garage is a good outfit. I liked what they have to say on their website, and a recommendation from folks here means a lot. So now to figure out if I need a new battery urgently or not. (Their P3006 diagnostics show the aux battery voltage as 13.750, if that means anything).

    As far as what repairs I need immediately, I guess I wasn't clear in my original post. By
    "[minimum] I need to have the dealership do before I take the Prius on the road"​
    I didn't mean as a permanent fix, I meant
    "what's the minimum I need fixed in the dealership, to enable me to drive the 40-50 miles to Luscious Garage, in order to get them to put in non-OE equipment, both the HV rebuild and a 12V battery that's better than the OE?"​

    Since I moved about a year ago, I had not found a good independent shop that's experienced with Prii, so I'd begun taking my car to the dealership again. At this point I do wish my car were at an independent shop so that I wouldn't be limited to OE solutions. And, ideally, to enable a nuanced conversation about LG's rebuild vs. ReInVent's batteries, as well as about what repair (if any) are needed in order to enable me to go 50 miles or so to LG. So that's also what I'm hoping to learn from this forum.

    InfoHound

    PS. This morning I also called the Toyota Customer Experience Center, to see if there is an alternative to getting an entire new HV battery pack. A: Toyota only sells new HV batteries, but given the extensive nature of proposed repairs he bumped my query to a Case Manager who "has more options". Don't know whether that will accomplish anything useful, or simply keep me in a rental car longer. (I am bummed that the HV problem didn't show up 9 months ago when it would've been covered by the California 10 yr/150K miles HW warranty. But if I have to pay for a replacement, I'd much rather get a rebuild with Gen II cell technology!)
     
  5. jdenenberg

    jdenenberg EE Professor

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    OK, get a Jumper battery pack (about $50 at many auto stores - mine has a hand air pump as well). This will make you comfortable driving with a weak 12v battery. The 13.7 volt reading is when your Prius is charging the 12v battery and supplying 12v power to accessories. You need to measure the voltage when your Prius is both off (12 volts min) and again with the Prius off and the lights on (voltage should not drop noticeably below 12v).

    Your HV battery can generally keep the car going for much more than the 50 mile trip. You just may not have a lot of acceleration as the system will baby the HV battery and not use it for non-critical functions (No AC, No Cruise Control, very little electric assist to the engine, ... )

    JeffD
     
  6. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    Call Luscious Garage and make an appointment. They will tell you what to expect on your drive in, and can explain the differences, (i.e. lack thereof) between their battery and ReInvolt's. The car will make it, it just may not have much power.

    Your battery warranty expired a long time ago. The 10 year/150 warranty only applied to 2004 and later. Gen 1 warranty was, what, 8/80?
     
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  7. infohound2001

    infohound2001 Junior Member

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    Thanks Jeff. That is very useful, clear information.

    But now that I know it's feasible, I'm having trouble making up my mind what to do:

    I talked to Luscious Garage and they are a bit less enthusiastic about the rebuilt battery packs as they've now seen a few Gen2 cell failures in the rebuilts. With that info, and given the hassle of going to San Francisco, DH was pushing to just go for Toyota's new HV battery, (to get the 8/100K warranty again -- but it isn't; the replacement would only have a 12 month warranty:confused:).

    The dealership says they can't test the ECU via a jumper aux battery or 12V source, to see if the 47030A ECU error code goes away, but they're concerned that the bad block caused a voltage spike and the ECU had gotten fried (the bad block voltage measured 14.08 V while the others are around 15.2 (~15.13 for the adjacent blocks, 15.4 for the outer blocks). So they have to replace the aux battery, the HV battery and only then can they check the ECU. Does that make sense?

    Before signing up to spend $4,000-5,000, I would also like to evaluate the health of other main systems in this 11 yo car, to see if I'm likely to be spending more $$$ any time soon. What are the other big-ticket "problem spots" we should get checked out by the dealer or another? The transmission / inverter? HVAC system? Are there early warning symptoms to check for?

    Thanks again. I love my teal Prius -- (though a bit less so now that I don't have a carpool sticker) but it is an 11 yo car with 150K miles, so I don't know if I really spend more in repairs than the Kelly blue book value.
     
  8. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    Okay, let's back up.

    Battery ECUs very seldom need to be replaced. If you need one, call somebody like Ted or AdoptAPart.com.

    When a cell, in a block, dies, that block will read 1.2V less than the rest. 14.1V + 1.2V = 15.3V. So you have a dead cell. There was no voltage spike that blew up the computer, that is utter garbage.

    Gen II batteries do die. It is either random failure of a cell, or overheating. I expect such a Gen 1 rebuilt battery with Gen II cells to last 3-5 years. Did you call Ted in Healdsburg and get his take, and what warranty he is willing to offer?

    Check with Toyota and see if you are getting a NEW battery, a new old-stock battery, or a remanufactured battery. I suspect some sort of remanufacturing, in light of a $1350 core charge on battery sales.

    Seriously, call Ted in Healdsburg. It is the best deal that you are going to get. If you have to replace the battery every 3 years with him, you still come out ahead vs. the dealer.

    eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices
     
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