Ford says its hybrid technology is advancing faster than Toyota's

They might of shared a battery supplier at some point, but it appears Ford used Sanyo for batteries. While Toyota used Panasonic.

The batteries themselves weren't the problem with Honda hybrids, it was the battery management software. Honda was allowing the battery charge to swing through a wider range than the 40% to 80% SOC needed for long NiMH battery life. There was other causes, like battery stack size, but that was the core of Honda's problem. If they were able to use the same battery cells going into the Prius, they still would've had problems.

Neither Ford nor Toyota had a major issue involving the hybrid battery. The chance of a problem occurring does increase with any car in the first year or two of production, though. With the troubles brought on to Honda by their battery issue, I believe Ford will be more vigilant in the case of their hybrids.

 

Toyota used PEV, a joint venture between Panasonic and Toyota. When Panasonic swallowed Sanyo, they created a monopoly on nimh, and Ford in the short run was forced to buy from them. Part of an objection to Pansonic controlling this tech, had Toyota become the majority partner in the joint venture PEV. Ford should be switching suppliers away from toyota in the new hybrids and phevs.
+1

Exactly. There is no reason to believe that Lithium should be less reliable than nimh. If there were then toyota would not be puting them in the cars. Ford has not had the problems honda has.

 

Wishful thinking at best. Here is a confirmation that Fusion and C-Max hybrids as well as Energi plugin models, will be using Lithium battery from Panasonic(Sanyo).

 

i am pretty sure that up to 2007 or 2008 they purchased toyota batteries and then switched to sanyo... just like they used aisin psd. most of their hybrid components were purchased from toyota group of companies... so it is not a surprise that new batteries are again panasonic ones.

 

The 2005 Escape hybrid used Sanyo batteries.

 

In the past Ford used NiMH and Toyota control algorithms.

The upcoming car will have neither, and for that reason I am skeptical of reliability.

 

Sanyo is now part of Panasonic. Ford will be getting the Lithium battery from Panasonic for their future hybrids and plugins. I wouldn't be surprised if Ford also use Denso Lithium BMU, which Prius PHV also has.

Sanyo said it'll offer Lithium battery cells in two sizes only. 5Ah for hybrids and 21Ah for plugins. I bet that's what Ford is using. Prius Alpha/+ is using 5Ah cells and Prius PHV will use the 21Ah cells.

Ford will be using Denso's new electric compressor that is smaller, lighter and more efficient. It sounds like the same type of advancements made in Prius c and Camry hybrid.

Ford and Toyota hybrids share a lot of components because they use the same suppliers. The exception is the new in-house developed transaxle. Ford's setup only use one planetary gearset where Toyota use another PSD as a speed reduction unit (torque multiplier) for MG2. Toyota's implementation is probably better for smaller packaging because all three engines are on the same shaft. Ford's MG2 is on a different shaft than MG1 and ICE but mechanical loss should be lower.

 

For Journalists

 

Thanks for the information. I obviously wrote that before the panasonic press release. Which seems like strange PR. Normally these are done jointly, so I expected another press release out soon from ford.

Ford currently uses compact power (LG) and JCI saft in its two plug ins, which why I assumed they would not add a third supplier. Maybe in the Ford press release we will hear that they are dropping one of these. They make their own battery packs so they can drop cell suppliers. I assume that panasonic is giving them a better price and/or has better technology than the two current suppliers. We know this is the sanyo tech that panasoic bought, but don't have all the real world details yet. From a price point of view, I would expect that the packs cost Ford less than the $750/kwh that JCI-saft batteries in the transit connect cost.

 

Thanks, it is probably an upgraded from the gen III prius to help cool the battery in the bev and energi models.

I haven't seen anything that says ford will be using the new denso cooled egr that was developed for the camry hybrid and prius c.

 

well it is obvious that Toyota and its group of companies created monopolies for a lot of hybrid parts, so Ford is forced to use them .

 

The monopoly on nimh is certainly not a good thing for the market other than toyota. In Lithium cells there still is competition - Nissan, LG chem, A123, JCI-saft, and Panasonic. Ford appears to be using 3 of them, but this new design win will be its largest share. GM is using 2. We can hope Ford chose the best supplier at the time. Choosing Lithium in the Fussion and c-max hybrid puts it ahead technologically compared to the toyota hybrids other than the alpha. On the plug ins they are on the same footing. If Ford complains about supply shortages this time, it is there own fault. Fool me once....

On the Denso e-compressor, there is competition, but as the press release stated they appear to be ahead in size and efficiency. These are fairly small light parts, so shipping foreign sourced parts, if that is what is happening does not greatly increase costs. Denso makes it sound as if this is an improvement on the one in the gen III prius, but I doubt it really makes much difference.

I brought up the cooled egr part, since this is something ford has talked about using, but has not announced. If they don't use cooled egr, this is one area where toyota's hybrids are technologically ahead.

Clear enough for you.

 

They are using EHR but no mention of EGR.

Source

 

I just read through this entire thread and thought I would add my personal experience with both Ford's hybrid system and Toyota' system. We have a 2010 PriusV(5) and an Escape Hybrid. I looked at the Escape for some time and read what I could find online before buying the Escape hybrid. Since we use it mainly during the Winter and when ever there is snow on the road(it is a 4X4) it is great as we live on top the river bluff. Two wheel drives park at the bottom of our quarter mile hill. Our Escape is a 2006 model and has belt driven air conditioning that stops when the ice shuts down. We bought a used Escape hybrid as the new ones are quite pricey. We will not put over 10-12 thousand miles a year on our FEH This is a great little SUV and they didn't sell near enough of them due to it's hybrid premium over the regular Escapes. We would have bought a new Prius v this fall if we didn't live on such a steep hill. The 4x4 option is not going to be offered by Ford in there new Escapes or c-max line. Our Prius will almost double the mileage of the FEH 4X4. Our Prius long term on the computer(5-6% higher than actual)is 55.1 The FEH is 28mpg now and close to 31mpg in warmer weather. I always hoped that Toyota would make a Rav 4 hybrid, but it doesn't seem to be happening. I hope Ford is successful with there new hybrids and keeps the price down so that they sell larger numbers of the hybrids. For those that think 28-31 mpg is bad, it is better than 18-19 of the vehicle we replaced.

 

ok, if ford's hybrid tech is so awesome, why did they cancel the Ford Escape Hybrid for the 2013 refresh? (which correct me if I'm wrong was using a licensed version toyota's HSD anyway)

Toyota is making a couple hybrid SUVs, Ford isn't. nuff said.

 

Because Ford doesn't have an infinite supply of hybrid parts and batteries.
Their research shows that the only consumers who want the Escape hybrid and not the C-max are the ones who want the AWD. Keeping on the Escape hybrid for just that was felt non-productive.
The new model Escape has greatly improved fuel economy with the Ecoboost engine over the previous gen straight ICE. It was felt a hybrid version wouldn't have enough improvement in comparison to garner sales. Compare Highland hybrid to Explorer 2.0l Ecoboost for an idea of the difference.

It was a patent swap. Ford got the patents their hybrid design was infringing on, and Toyota got some of Ford's for diesel, emissions, and probably some others. Official details of the swap were never released, but these swaps are common practice in multiple industries.

 

yeah, sure. lol.

apperantly Ford has the bestest technology out there, yet there are always reasons why they can NOT sell more than 30k a year, when toyota sells 1,000,000 a year.

Ford is becoming worse than GM... sell the damn things Ford and we will give you props!

 

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