Anyone waiting for PIP getting the "itch" to consider a Chevy Volt instead?

6 miles continuous.

The important numbers are 29 kWh/100 mile and 0.2 gallon/100 miles. 50 MPG after that. That put the electricity consumption below i-MiEV and well below Leaf and Volt.

Gas consumption is also better on the highway, now at 49 MPG instead of 48.

 

Its like anything else. Some people strugle to get 40 mpg while iothers get 55 mpg without trying

 

I think you mean 0.2 gallons/100 miles. That additional gas consumption makes the 29 kWh/100 number artificially low when compared against an all-electric vehicle.

The i-MiEV is almost certainly more electrically efficient in its combined EPA equivalent rating than the PiP when driving under conditions that don't require gasoline assist.

 

DrI, you're sig notes $56 total for 2011 mi.... Volt EPA is $1k / 15k mi for

$134 for 2011 miles. EPA assuming a lot more miles on gas I suppose.

 

Yes EPA is presuming 64% EV, 36% ICE. My ratio since October is 92.4%. Also my gas is cheaper (we just broke $3.00 a gallon in colorado springs) as is my electricity. (I pay 6-7 cents vs EPA's 11)
And I'm a better driver than EPA guys.. I get 31.04kw/100m vs their 36.

 

I think the best you can do is track your total electrical energy used to charge the car, with a Kill-a-Watt meter or something similar (mine works for 120-volts, up to 15 amps; you'd have to get something different for L2 charging) and also track your gasoline, and then say something like:

I used X kWh + Y gallons to go Z miles.

You could probably also state Wh/mile for pure electric driving and mpg in CS mode.

But blended driving will use differing proportions of gas and electric depending on the demands put on the car and the computer's program as it tries to maximize efficiency.

 

I'm okay with tracking kWh + Gas = Miles Driven, but don't forget cost. If I can drive something that uses more kWh—since they're cheaper—I'd go with that.

The PiP should have had a range of 30 real world miles or more.

Did someone say it's now 6 miles of continuous usage? That's so low, it's laughable. A three mile commute, round trip, without recharging? Why even bother recharging that car—and hogging a charging station which a Leaf could really use—for six miles of range?

If the Volt were made by another company, and had a different bodystyle, I'd seriously consider one. I could have been making my commute for the last six months on zero gas, and still made those semi-regular longer trips without renting a car.

The more I think about the idea, the more I like it. I guess I'm not an early adopter, but now it's making sense to me, actually.

 

I see the greenwashing is already taking hold. Reading reaction that effort to mislead is an interesting measure on how worried others actually are about PHV capturing marketshare.

On both the big GM forum and the Volt forum & blog that distortion of what the "6 mile" value actually represents has been actively churning. Those attempting to undermine PHV are trying to give the impression the pack is depleted after just 6 miles of travel.

The EPA testing-cycle triggers the engine to run briefly at the 6-mile mark. That's it. No big deal. There's still plenty of plug-in capacity remaining after that. You can continue driving in EV for several miles.
.

 

I agree that the 6 mile figure is not what should be focused on. The focus should be on the 11 mile range and recognizing it burns a tiny amount of gas to go the 11 miles (a couple ounces according to the EPA, some people may be able to pull it off with none).

 

Hmm interesting to hear that you are suggesting the PHV's EV abilities are greenwashing. (The term greenwashing applies to a practice that suggests something is greener than it really is -- so are you saying the PHV is greenwashing ang implying it EV abilities are oversold.

You are free to focus on what you want. While I do agree the 6miles is limited, it is the standard EPA test -- it effects the AER of all measured cars. To me the bigger issues is that th 6miles and the 11miles with EV+gas was hidden until the cars arrived-- so much for toyota's under-promise over delver.

But now that "real world" milage is starting to be reported it will be more useful to put it in context. Consider these posts (from another thread)

So seems that people are getting 53-57mpg over their first few hundred miles. A few posts of near pure EV or MPG on short trips but in the long run, seems like the average driver will be in mid 50's MPG. Wow, that is Huge! Oh wait, the average Voltstats.net driver 119mpg. Yep Prius PHV looks like it might be greenwashing alright.

 

Yes, and most that buy plug-ins would even use more kwh if they were more expensive. The point of using a plug-in is to use less gas. They likely won't save you money.

Completely agree it should have more. The range is targeted to the Japanese market. It is a step in the right direction and some will want to buy them, and toyota will get experience.

I would say 6 is a strange number, lets talk about it but focus on the 11 miles blended. My numbers may be off but are close. If you go over 100km/h(62mph) or request more than 50 hp the engine will turn on and use gasoline. For me that would be in the first mile, some how epa picks 6 miles. I would say its lying to say any miles AER, but that is the EPA test. The important one is the 11 miles blended. In 11 miles the epa says you will use 3.2kwh and enough gasoline to go a mile. Where and how much gasoline depends on how you follow the limitations, but to compare to the volt or leaf, I would use 10 electric miles subracting out the gas. So prius phv gets 10 miles, volt 35 miles, leaf 73 miles on electricity. Remember YMMV. Drive it in the dead of winter 60 mph up hill and the packs probably depleted in less than 6 miles, flat roads at 20mph and it will go 16 without gas.

Yes I think the concept for battery size is a good one, but the question on volt sales is about the rest of the car and its manufacturer too.

I think green washing is a little harsh for the toyota miles. I don't like how the epa did the AER, but it is there test. Toyota should just be clear that you need to drive it a certain way to not turn on the engine. The more plug in choices the better.

 

Let's not leave out Tesla Roadster, 245 miles; Tesla Model S, 165 or 225 or 300 miles depending on trim level. That's at 55 mph IIRC. Even the base trim level Model S would probably go 100 miles in winter with the heater set on high and driving aggressively.

 

Certainly for many of us the tesla S provides the first car that could be a daily driver on all electric miles. I was only pointing out cars in the same price range of the volt and phv. I think those 3 are within $5K of each other after tax credit.

 

I don't even think it so much about comparing the miles, but where a vehicle is on the spectrum to mass electrification:

at one end are the real world EVs being sold now, (Roadster, Leaf, etc...)

a little further down the spectrum are the PHEVS (Volt, some kit modded Prius)

a little further down is the blended PHVs (Pip)

a little further down are the hybrids (normal prius)

at the other end is a pure-ICE or non-EV.

 

This might be a ridiculous question, but is it possible that Toyota is biding their time until the Cobasys patent runs out at the end of next year, then will jump in with a long-range NiMH battery car, possibly even pure electric, that will surpass everything out there now?

 

Interesting idea. Prius v PHV may be suitable with NiMH due to the extra space.

 

Not a ridiculous question. The limitation, for now, is NiMH battery manufacturing capacity. Maybe by Gen 4 of the liftback they'll have cheaper and more lithium batteries and will be able to switch some hybrids over and leave NiMH as a budget hybrid and plugin-hybrid option.

But, there is one possibility. NiMH is low density so you need a larger vehicle to have a larger battery. They're going to manufacture Toysla lithium RAV4 EVs at their Ontario plant, but maybe that's hiding a plan to manufacture shorter-range NiMH EV or PHEV in 2014.

 

Cobasys patent prevents Toyota from manufacturing NiMH cells larger than 8Ah (if I recall). Prius got away with 6.5Ah. Larger NiMH cells (like 21Ah Lithium) should increase energy density and lower the cost.

I doubt Toyota is going to do it but it is still possible.

 

Cobasys patent is expiring Nimh does not make any sense in 2012 for a large battery. It not only takes up more volume but adds more weight and must be kept at a narrower SOC. You don't see notebooks putting nimh batteries in them anymore.

The only advantage is cost, and toyota is the only major manufavturer using nimh in new designs. The cost of lithium batteries is likely less than $750/kwh. At 4.4kwh in the phv this means less than $3300, the savings from using nimh has to be much less than that. In fact for the same range there may be no savings at all. Given the penalties in weight in volume I can't see that those cost savings would put a prius v phv (can we say prius wagon phv instead) in a good competitive position against the c-max energi. Since that is the closest competitor, it does not seem like a good business move.

 

Nope. The energy:weight ratio is too low. The car would be too heavy. NiMH works in the Prius because the Prius only needs a very small energy buffer to work well. The EV1 had NiMH, but only about a hundred-mile range in a two-seat car. It's an outdated technology.

OTOH, when the patent expires, NiMH could be an improvement over lead-acid in DIY conversions, if anybody makes them available at a good price.