1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Why An MRI Costs More In The US?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by zenMachine, Mar 8, 2012.

  1. zenMachine

    zenMachine Just another Onionhead

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2007
    3,355
    299
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...280-in-france/2011/08/25/gIQAVHztoR_blog.html

    There is a simple reason health care in the United States costs more than it does anywhere else: The prices are higher.

    That may sound obvious. But it is, in fact, key to understanding one of the most pressing problems facing our economy. In 2009, Americans spent $7,960 per person on health care. Our neighbors in Canada spent $4,808. The Germans spent $4,218. The French, $3,978. If we had the per-person costs of any of those countries, America’s deficits would vanish. Workers would have much more money in their pockets. Our economy would grow more quickly, as our exports would be more competitive.

    ... On Friday, the International Federation of Health Plans — a global insurance trade association that includes more than 100 insurers in 25 countries — released more direct evidence. It surveyed its members on the prices paid for 23 medical services and products in different countries, asking after everything from a routine doctor’s visit to a dose of Lipitor to coronary bypass surgery. And in 22 of 23 cases, Americans are paying higher prices than residents of other developed countries. Usually, we’re paying quite a bit more. The exception is cataract surgery, which appears to be costlier in Switzerland, though cheaper everywhere else.

    Prices don’t explain all of the difference between America and other countries. But they do explain a big chunk of it. The question, of course, is why Americans pay such high prices — and why we haven’t done anything about it.

    “Other countries negotiate very aggressively with the providers and set rates that are much lower than we do,†Anderson says. They do this in one of two ways. In countries such as Canada and Britain, prices are set by the government. In others, such as Germany and Japan, they’re set by providers and insurers sitting in a room and coming to an agreement, with the government stepping in to set prices if they fail.

    In America, Medicare and Medicaid negotiate prices on behalf of their tens of millions of members and, not coincidentally, purchase care at a substantial markdown from the commercial average. But outside that, it’s a free-for-all. Providers largely charge what they can get away with, often offering different prices to different insurers, and an even higher price to the uninsured...
     
    2 people like this.
  2. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    15,232
    1,562
    0
    Location:
    off into the sunset
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    There are big differences between healthcare for profit and healthcare for people. Not surprisingly, cost is one of them.

    Also, there is such a thing as a natural monopoly. For any kind of insurance, the individual risk is least when the insurance pool is the largest. When the population is divided into ever-smaller groups, costs for those with higher health risks are higher than they would be otherwise. And with a for-profit system, it's the profits that tend to rise with the lower health risk groups, instead of their premiums being lower. With so many different companies involved, their are inefficiencies and duplication of infrastructure that has to be paid for somehow. With a focus on profit rather than care, companies tend to spend more effort denying claims than they do providing care. The responsibility is to the shareholders, not the patient.
     
  3. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    14,816
    2,496
    66
    Location:
    Far-North Chicagoland
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    What I find sad about our idea of Healthcare is that we don't really care for our Health. In my opinion, we pay way too much money and attention on caring for Sickness and not enough money and attention on caring for Health.

    For example, I continuously ask our HR representative why our "healthcare" provider doesn't subsidize fitness center memberships. Why is it that we can justify the cost of Lipitor and not a gym membership? The answer, I know, is that there is no profit in keeping the healthy healthy; people will pay much more to keep the sick alive.
     
  4. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    18,058
    3,073
    7
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Speaking of insurance pool sizes, our school employees are a good example of how weird health insurance is in the US. As a very small school district, we are attempting to joint an association to increase the pool size and cut costs. One would think that all teachers in the state, being employed by the government and belonging to the state association and state retirement, would be one big insurance pool. One would be wrong. Each group has to fend for itself. The whole idea seems crazy until you realize that it leads to larger profits for the insurance companies. Just follow the money and you have your answer.

    Tom
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. Trebuchet

    Trebuchet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    3,772
    936
    43
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Grass isn't always greener on the other side as there are plenty of things they pay quite a bit more for over there, like fuel for one. :usa2:
     
  6. HaveNoCents

    HaveNoCents Conservative Tree Hugger

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2011
    299
    46
    0
    Location:
    Crystal Beach, Texas
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Five
    I recently went to Italy. One of the guys showing me around was telling me that education and medical were FREE in Italy for all citizens. After further probing it was determined that they actually pay pretty close to 60 percent of their income when considering their cost for gas, their VAT, and their income tax rate. Also, more than 1/3 of all males over 30 are still living at home.

    The grass is definitely not greener there, and from what I understand it's worse in Germany.


    iPad ?
     
    2 people like this.
  7. davesrose

    davesrose Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2010
    767
    164
    0
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    No news here...our healthcare costs have been bloated for quite some time. There needs to be a national discussion on real reformations of the healthcare system, but we're mired in primative talking points. Our system promotes non-preventative medicine: clinics compete in having the best MRI, surgical, or radiation treatment procedures. We spend a lot of money by not practicing preventative medicine, and overspending on procedures towards the end of life. My opinion: instead of spending money to advertise on how many open MRIs a clinic has, having more GPs to focus on maintaining health would be the first step in making a change.
     
  8. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    6,722
    2,120
    45
    Location:
    North Yorkshire, UK
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    I was just going to say that!

    Just over a year ago I needed an emergency MRI scan and it cost be £0/$0. But then I pay 20% vat/sales tax and fuel costs £1.37 a litre/$8.02 a US gallon!

    Yesterday evening I broke my foot (no I'm not making it up - don't run on a polished kitchen floor in your socks!) and popped down to the local hospital, got it all fixed, came home with the meds and apparantly expect a bill for £7/$11 for the meds as they're to pay for.

    No worries about insurance and whether they'd pay out. Just turn up, quote your details and job done. It's paid for elsewhere and by other means, but takes the worry away.
     
  9. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    18,058
    3,073
    7
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    There is no free lunch. Everything we have and use gets paid for by somebody. In the case of most Europeans, they use high fuel taxes to finance public transportation. This is a good idea if you favor public transportation, and a bad idea if you feel that each individual should be responsible for his own transportation. It's a philosophical argument, and both sides have merit. Both sides would agree that either way the money should be wisely used for transportation.

    It's a similar story for health care in the US. We pay for it either way. The question comes down to doing it efficiently. Our current system isn't very efficient for two reasons: 1) Insurance companies have a lot of overhead, taking much of the money for their stockholders; and 2) We focus on sickness, rather than promoting health. Our system is based on making money from health care. There isn't an easy way to extract money from keeping people healthy, so instead we focus on expensive treatment for illness.

    Tom
     
  10. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2010
    4,539
    1,433
    9
    Location:
    Northern California
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    That is just the start of the health insurance problem. They also take a large amount of money to run their giant bureaucracies and their convoluted requirements cause medical care providers to need their own expensive bureaucracies to deal with the insurance companies.
     
  11. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    14,487
    1,518
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Another thing about health insurance here is its complexity, not only between insurance companies, but even within the same company. Figuring out which plan best suits my situation is horribly complicated. With auto insurance I just decide what coverage I want and what deductible kevel, and each line item has a price.

    But with health insurance some plans have co-pays and others have complicated deductibles that are not directly comparable. It's a nightmare trying to compare them.

    * * * * *

    I've posted this before, but it's been a long time:

    I lived in Spain for a year and a half. While there I started to develop a heart irregularity and I went to the doctor, who had me wear a heart monitor, and later did a treadmill stress test. On another occasion I got a urinary tract infection and went to the emergency room. In all cases I went to a private clinic or hospital and paid cash out of pocket since, as a foreigner, I was not in their national health plan. I paid the full bill in cash.

    The prices I paid in Spain (not subsidized by the government or anyone else) were typically about 1/3 of what I pay for the same procedures here (i.e. emergency-room visit or treadmill stress test) even though here I have insurance and the hospital or clinic gives me a discount for having insurance and (sometimes) pays part of the bill.

    This has nothing to do with high tax rates in Spain because these were private institutions billing me their full prices.

    Conclusion: Regardless of who's paying (insurance company, private party, or government) hospitals and clinics in the U.S. charge about three times as much for exactly the same procedures as those in Spain charge. And I got top-notch health care while there. I'd say equal to the care I get here.
     
  12. rpatterman

    rpatterman Thinking Progressive

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    756
    226
    0
    Location:
    Boulder, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    II
    A previous poster commented that "they" pay much more for fuel.
    Of course that poster drew no connection to the price of fuel and the topic being discussed, so I will.

    You would expect a very high cost of fuel to increase the cost of a service such as say "healthcare", due to the increased costs of moving product, equipment and people. Yet their cost of healthcare is half what we pay! So, healthcare in the US is even a worst deal than the numbers show.
     
  13. Trebuchet

    Trebuchet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    3,772
    936
    43
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Wth! Are you a lemming! Why does it take some other entity, state or otherwise, to promote or get you to take care of YOURSELF? Quit depending on a Nanny State to tell you what to do. I have never seen such mind numbed Obamatrons in my entire life! Gimme this, gimme that, tell me what to do! For crying out loud get off the tit spit out the pablum and stand on your own two legs!

    That pervious poster would like to remind you of what a great American, patriot, hero and LIBERAL said many years ago.

    "Ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country."

    Today, it's all gimme, gimme, gimme. Those that complain about the health system here because it doesn't meet their every need, for free of course, don't even come close to the greatest of that man or the party that he represented. We need a Democratic party of his caliber today, instead we have the Prog's. A party and a philosophy which teaches us to expect from others that which we should be doing for ourselves.

    The complaints voiced here are pathetic. Our country, government or system doesn't prompt preventative health care? Gimme a BREAK, do it yourself for crying out loud are you all so pathetically dependent on the state or some other enitiy to tell or show you how to do one of the most basic fundamental things in life!?!?!? :glare:

    We are DOOMED if this Progressive movement of Obamatrons takes over and destroys the traditional America individualism, independence and responsibility that made us great!

    God Bless the United States of American because we sure are going to need it if that happens. :usa2:
     
  14. milkman44

    milkman44 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    591
    386
    0
    Location:
    Ky
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    I enjoy finding personal attack leveled against me. It means the other side hasn't one single point left to support their argument or POV.


    Ironic!
     
  15. Trebuchet

    Trebuchet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    3,772
    936
    43
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    You seem to be unfamiliar with my mission here and that is to fight fire with fire. That aside there were plenty of points raised, read it again.
     
  16. Trebuchet

    Trebuchet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    3,772
    936
    43
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Maybe I read it wrong but AFAIK the healthcare system in Spain is subsidized by the government. As such the Spanish economy is closely comparable to the economy in Greece.

    After Greece, EU can now worry about Spain - Darrell Delamaide's Political Capital - MarketWatch

    I don't think I'd be bragging there system up to much as it has had one of the highest growths in expenditures for healthcare in the world. Which IMHO would be the leading cause of their economic decline.
     
  17. rpatterman

    rpatterman Thinking Progressive

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    756
    226
    0
    Location:
    Boulder, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Due to your mission as a troll, you have lost all ability to reason or think logically. Health insurance companies promoting preventitive care has nothing to do with a President that has been dead 40 years or a nanny state or give me free attitude. It has to do with good business and providing good value to your clients.

    I would expect auto insurance companies to be involved in promoting safe driving. I would expect home insurance companies to promote the use of fire alarms and fire sprinklers. Given that the US cost of healthcare is double that of the rest of the world with worst results, I would expect US health insurance companies to be attempting to lower costs thru promoting preventative care.
    It is just logical and good business, which is why I would not expect you to understand or agree. End of discussion.

    Back to topic: For "profit" healthcare will always be more expensive and worst quality than for "people" healthcare.


     
  18. Trebuchet

    Trebuchet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    3,772
    936
    43
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Do you know why things are so expensive in America because we expect someone else to do the job we should be doing for ourselves! If Prog's and their supporters need a nanny to wipe their collective butts, promote a healthy lifestyle or show you how to take care of yourself then America is doomed. I would expect you not to promote that demise.

    Thank you :yo:
     
  19. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    18,058
    3,073
    7
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    I thought your mission was to sling muck; after all, your name is "Trebuchet" - one of the best slinging devices ever invented.

    Tom
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. davesrose

    davesrose Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2010
    767
    164
    0
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Eh, no. If anything, you're proving yourself to be a lemming by not reading my post. No where was I talking about depending on the state: mearly ideas on reducing overhead in healthcare costs. Please pop your head out of your arse (maybe then you'd also be able to form at least one coherent argument within all that diatribe) and refrain from your political wingnut rants outside of FOHPol.


    For everyone else, I thought this Frontline episode had some good coverage on the pros/cons of other healthcare models:


    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/view/