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Brakeforce changed with same pedal position!

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by R-P, Apr 8, 2012.

  1. climateguy

    climateguy Junior Member

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    I don't know if there's a gradual change during "normal" operation, but when it gets to that point where the battery is "full" there's definitely an abrupt change as regeneration is cut and the engine is spun-up. It's just like what you experience when this happens while you're braking, but while coasting.

    Didn't see this earlier, but should have noted your location. This is really strange. Typically one would see 7-8 bars SOC only when descending a substantial hill. For example my decent is ~1900 vertical feet, and I usually hit 7 bars about 2/3 of the way down. (A profile of the terrain I drive is posted near the end of this thread.) I wouldn't expect anyone living in the Netherlands to see 7-8 bars SOC. Sorry for the dumb question, but you're not driving in "B" are you? Do you ever see low SOC (1-2 bars)? How many bars are typical during your drive?
     
  2. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    Yeah I've never seen 8 bars without a substantial downhill run, but people do sometimes get 7 bars just from a series of acceleration/decelerations. I'll occasionally go from 6 bars up to 7 just from flatland braking. For example:
    - take off from lights.
    - get caught by next red light and have to brake moderately.
    - repeat x3.
     
  3. R-P

    R-P Active Member

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    I typically see 7 bars when arriving home: I leave the highway (100km/h) with coasting to a junction, then it is few hundred feet to said dyke, then a STOP-sign at the bottom (yes, I got a ticket there ($100 or so), so now I distinctly stop every time), one more acceleration to 25mph and coasting or gliding if traffic permits to my parkingspace half a mile away.
    I recently saw 8 and I was really surprised, as it seemed strange to me, as in 'not seen very often'. I don't keep track, but it might have been the second time ever (owned it since 6th of December or so).

    Never see purple unless I get caught in a traffic jam. Then my last 5 minutes average will be very good, but it will drop my battery to 2 bars.:D Not sure I ever saw only one bar.

    So in short: typical is between 4 and 7 bars with very few exceptions outside this range.
     
  4. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    Yeah people often report getting to 7 green bars just from decelerating off a freeway. The battery typically needs about 6 to 7% increase in SOC to go from it's nominal six bar level up to seven bars. This would typically correspond to about 85 W-hrs.

    The kinetic energy (0.5 m v^2) in the Prius at 30 m/s (108 km/h) is about 760 kJ, which is about 210 watt-hrs. They say that at very best you can recover about 50% of your kinetic energy through regenerative braking, so lets say we get 40%. That's almost exactly 85 W-hrs, so yeah, it's not surprising that you can get to 7 green bars decelerating from freeway speed.

    The potential energy (PE = mgh) from a 50' (15m) descent is only about 250kJ (70 W-hrs). Say you recover 50% of this, then that's still only about a 2.5% increase in SOC, quite a bit less than the +7 to 8% that you'd typically need to go from 7 to 8 green bars. So not surprising that you rarely see eight.
     

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  5. R-P

    R-P Active Member

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    Love your math.:cheer2:

    If I go off like that, I very often fear no one ever reads the calculations. :D
    But then again, I mostly do it in caraudio forums where the public (often <20yr olds who want to go boom) may be slightly less interested in such a deep discussion about e.g. powerdraw, compression, alternators and battery-size.:cool:
     
  6. R-P

    R-P Active Member

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    It has just cost us our front bumper. :(

    Wife came back saying she had been in a fender-bender. By the description of it, it was exactly what this thread is about.

    Emergency stop on a bridge (some 100 meters from the place mentioned in my first post, but this is irrelevant for the story). It is a modern drawbridge, so it has metal inserts in the asfalt where the moving part will slide in the stationary part. She braked hard and suddenly had no brakingforce at all and just ran into the car in front of her. As said, it was an emergency braking situation, but she doesn't get why the Prius didn't stop in time. She lost braking power and was 'waiting' for the ABS to build up pressure again, but it never did (at least not in the amount she expected).

    The crack in the bumper is evident and the license plate holder is a goner. The actual licence plate (aluminium) was curved in the shape of the bumper of the car in front of her.

    We'll see what the damage is on the other car (seems moslty cosmetic, but a bumper will easily be 1000€). Turns out we have an all-risk insurance (that we thought we had stopped 5 years ago... means that it will also cover our own damage) so if the damage on the other car is too high to spring for it ourselves*, we'll get our own damage fixed too. If not, I'll just glue it together. It's an 11 year old car nearing 300k km (at 180k miles atm), so I'll live if we don't have a shiny new bumper...


    * setback in our insurance premium will be about 900€/1000$, so if total cost is lower, it is wiser to pay for it ourselves. If it is more, we'll let the insurance company pay for it. But this setback assumes we keep the Prius for another 5 years until the insurance premium is back to current discount level. But if we e.g. change the Prius for e.g. a Model X, this setback in premium will obviously cost us way more.


    PS: the dog was with her in the car and is still shaken up. Tail between her legs and just very timid...


    PPS: just drove by the Toyota dealer and a quick glance gives us an estimate of 1400€ (>1600$) for the bumper.
     
    #26 R-P, Dec 15, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2020
    donbright likes this.