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God: Benevolent or Malevolent?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by airportkid, Apr 20, 2012.

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  1. airportkid

    airportkid Will Fly For Food

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    I don't know about ALL wars but most of them. I blame religion for a great deal of the harm we see inflicted on society, infecting society, and imposing on society.

    But none of that is used to conclude a god doesn't exist, or is even just unlikely to exist.

    Racism/tribalism causes wars too, causes much the same irrational destruction that flows from religious belief (and is often encouraged and abetted by religious tenets), but I don't infer that a persecuted minority ethnicity doesn't exist.

    Whether a god exists is a question wholly independent from the mere behavior of people who believe in one, or use one to justify their depredations.

    It's not the belief itself I object to; it's that the belief is reached irrationally. It's that an irrational belief is so attractive to some people they enshrine it and, because it's irrational, accept a sphere of human behavior FREE of reason. All you have there is anarchy.

    Would you appreciate it if your bank abandoned the reason of accounting principles and satisfied itself with some irrational method of keeping track of your money? Would you appreciate it if your doctor abandoned the reason of his scientific training and satisfied himself with some irrational method of diagnosing you and treating you?

    And don't attempt to pretend there's anything rational supporting religious belief; it's 100% subjective. How else to explain the total anarchy of its application throughout history and globally? No two people ever reach 100% agreement on any aspect of it.

    Does a god exist? There's no evidence for it, and those who believe that one exists can't agree on any aspect its nature. Ergo, it's unlikely to the point of negligible possibility, so I for one say no, there is no such thing.

    That I despise what its believers do, abandon reason and use their belief you wreak the most foul inhumanities on people they feel compelled to intrude on, is a totally separate issue from whether a deity actually exists.
     
  2. luckychucky

    luckychucky New Member

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    God is all things. I believe, it gives me hope. Your question was is God one thing or another, he is all and everything. I wouldn't question it. Because there will be an end. It's easy, you either believe or you don't. I prefer to believe he is all things. If I'm wrong in the end, and I stand before judgement, and I find out if God is benevolent or malevolent, or whatever God is feeling like being on my turn at judgement, I can look God in the eye and say I believed in you. It gives me hope. If I was a gambling man, I'd rather bet my spirit on there is a god and be wrong, then bet there isn't a god and be wrong. my name is Chuck, and I drive a Prius. 1st post. Let the judging begin.
     
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  3. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    You just strongly implied 80% of humanity is irrational (adherants.com) since they believe in a supreme being.

    I'm not one of those that believe all that is relevant is matter and somehow it exploded into the Universe without intelligence, then dismiss anything of spirit as ignorant, as you seem to.

    I distinguish religion from the things done in the name of religion that were often committed by ungodly, self-serving people - you lump them together to attack religion.
     
  4. airportkid

    airportkid Will Fly For Food

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    Well they weren't UNgodly, since it was a god they believed they acted on behalf of. They might have been UN your god, in that your conception of a god would exclude their behavior, but that's just YOUR god. THEIR god they were 100% in accord with.

    I imagine you consider yourself well-meaning, a decent person who wouldn't use religion to inflict harm.

    But I'm fairly certain you would never vote for someone you know is an atheist. You probably wouldn't vote for someone whose religion is radically different from yours, a Muslim, say, or a Buddhist. If so, you're in direct violation of the United States Constitution, which expressly forbids ANY religious test to determine eligibility for office. Your imposing that test anyway, rendering ineligible a candidate for your vote on impermissible grounds.

    Well that's a significant harm, in my book. It shapes the pool of candicacy in a way that those of us who do NOT impose a religious test find perpetually untenable.

    Now you can try to rationalize your illicit bias by claiming your exclusion of atheists and unacceptable religious belief is really based on political differences - and since one can ALWAYS find political differences, you breathe easy with a clear conscience.

    But you aren't fooling anyone. Least of all yourself. You know why you're not voting for atheists or Muslims, and so do I.
     
  5. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    ^ considering the very strong and persistent disagreements that often reveal a lack of understanding of Christians, yes I definitely would hesitate to vote for an atheist, because argumentative talk is one thing - the ability to act as an elected leader is another thing.

    Why would I want to vote for someone so hostile to my beliefs or someone that misinterpretes them so badly? I know that sounds like painting atheists with a broad brush, but the ones that are heard are usually not friendly or promote sympathy.

    While a lot of what you said in the above post was speculation, I will confirm this one.
     
  6. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    Chuck. Welcome. :)

    Sorry, wrong thread. We've been through that bet already, as discussed here. Happy reading. ;)
     
  7. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    Welcome aboard Chuck, nice to meet you.
     
  8. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    What?!
     
  9. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    When did I become Congress or some other elected official?

    This is just one of numerous examples of your point of view distorting reality - any legally qualified voter can vote for any legally qualified candidate for public office - period. You are not going to find a legal opinion agreeing with what you said.

    That is so clear it does not invite the "Freedom of Religion" vs "Freedom from Religion" debate.
     
  10. Hidyho

    Hidyho Senior Member

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    Religion has no place in government, period, good governance demands that religion not be the deciding factor in a real and perfect government. The fact that for well over 200 years, that battle has been at the forefront of American government, has allowed this country to progress from burning witches to creating civil rights for all. Now we have religious organizations demanding that they have control of government and tell government what to do, without the burden of paying taxes, something is wrong with that.
     
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  11. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    So you haven't had a chance to hear Sam Harris yet? Continuing to make statements about how all atheists are all not friendly without making an effort to look at ones specifically pointed out to you as friendly, is hostile to the beliefs of many people here. And we know you wouldn't want to do that.
     
  12. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    ^ I said most - not all.

    But that would get in the way of your rant. ;)

    Most people understand what I just said: The adversarial atmosphere at PHOP over the years does not make people more sympathetic towards atheists. I expect someone will be contrary and say yes it does.
     
  13. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    Nor towards Christians.

    So if it is only most, and only those who are proponents (as opposed to practitioners), and only those who are most vocal, you will have no issues with my judging you based on the most vocal proponents of Christianity?

    Or would that get in the way of your rant?
     
  14. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    Your side had been ranting years before I weighed in, tarring-and-feathering anyone that disagreed. Some of you think that's great PR - enjoy your delusion!
     
  15. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    So it's okay to accuse me of saying things I never said because it would be "inconvenient" to try to figure out what I actually said??? How typical of the arguments that come from religious fanatics.

    And yes, I become emotional when people accuse me of saying things I have not, or of holding positions I oppose. That is the ultimate in dirty debating tactics.

    (Creationists do this a lot, when they claim "science says" followed by something science does not say. Proponents of pseudoscience often do the same.)

    There is a BIG difference between blaming religion for wars, persecutions, and cruelty, on the one hand, and using that as an argument for the non-existence of god on the other.

    I have said, and continue to say, that religion is directly responsible for roughly half the preventable suffering in the world. Non-religious causes account for the other half. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with arguments that there is no god.

    Hi Chucky. Welcome to Prius Chat. Lots of great information about the car, and other cars, on the car threads, and lots of unrelated discussion here in Fred's House of Pancakes.

    See the thread on Pascal's Wager for discussion on the idea that believing in god is a good bet as regards some possible reward after one dies. Warning: It's a long and rancorous thread, and I think that most of its participants have grown tired of it. Of course, that doesn't mean you shouldn't speak your mind here or there.

    Your idea that god is everything, is certainly more sensible than the typical Christian assertions that he is this or that, and not something else. But from my point of view, even the assertion that god is everything has no foundation other than subjective belief.

    I hope you enjoy the board.
     
  16. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    ^ Daniel, it seems your involvement on PHOP is a full-time job - most of the rest of us have other things to do than professional arguing. The pay I hear is not that good. ;)

    In the past I have quoted you in a reply, and sometimes I use them to make general observations not necessarily directed at you.

    Not all of the ongoing God-bashing threads have been archived, but what has is still encyclopedic in volume - who can remember all that? The adversarial nature is such that opposing points are going to find a way to disagree regardless.
     
  17. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Not sure if this is intended as an insult, or if it's just a childish complaint about the amount of posting I do.

    Well, none of it has ever been from me, because I have never bashed god. I'm not sure what would be the point of bashing something that does not exist. I don't bash unicorns, either, FWIW.

    I do bash religion, and the people who use religion as an excuse to suppress civil and human rights, or as an excuse to promote war, intolerance, etc. I also have written about the disconnect between what the Bible says about god, and what modern Christians believe about god. But again, the subject here is not god himself, since no such thing exists, but rather belief systems. Most of the common belief systems regarding god are so full of internal inconsistencies that it truly baffles me how anybody could hold them. (Though there are a few people, like luckychucky, who leave their definitions of god more open-ended and thereby avoid many of the contradictions of the mainstream sects.)

    There are also people who read the Bible as a humanist document, and take to heart its general attitude of accepting all people. They oppose war, they support marriage equality, they advocate for the poor, they do not complain about having to pay taxes, etc. I get along very well with these people. I like them, and I find that they like me even though we don't share a belief system. It does not bother them that I don't believe in god, and for the most part they share my disgust with the crimes, the racism, and the homophobia of so many organized religions.
     
  18. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    ^ Yes, I question making a job over the years religion-bashing.

    This is the typical pattern:
    • A thread starts
    • Bashing starts
    • It goes on and on
    • Various people finally get offended enough to join
    • It degrades to endless argueing to win at all costs

    What have you gained from this over the years?
     
  19. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Promoting the truth is its own reward.
     
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  20. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    ^ the delivery has something to be desired.

    Over the past day some of the responses at me seem like a cornered animal. Some of the responses are as if there are mobs with torches and clubs out to harass or lynch godless people...that atmosphere (mobs) does not exist in the real world and definitely not at PC. When the screams of persecution with a generous amount of hyperbole go on long enough, there will be a reaction but not one I think you desire.

    I'm probably a part of twenty+ forums, yet I rarely touch this topic. Are there irreligous people at those other forums? Definitely. What they don't do is drone on and on, condemning religion enough until they get the fight they picked for.
     
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