1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Need input for decision to purchase Prius C or something else..

Discussion in 'Prius c Main Forum' started by AtlantaBIRT, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. AtlantaBIRT

    AtlantaBIRT Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    16
    3
    0
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I own a small business that requires me to drive between 20,000 - 25,000 miles per year picking up and delivering small items. For the past four years I have used a 2002 Toyota Tundra that gets 14 MPG on a good day. Since only about 10% of my trips require the cargo space of a truck I am going to purchase a small fuel-efficient hatchback. Since there are several on the market right now that are pushing the 40 MPG mark this will be a substantial savings in fuel each year.

    Since I would prefer to stick with Toyota (my family currently owns two - the aforementioned Tundra and a 2000 Camry that were both purchased new and are pushing 200,000 miles) I am interested in both the Prius C and the Yaris.

    I would prefer the Prius C due to the higher MPG however I have spoken to two Atlanta-area consumer experts that have told me that while the Prius line of vehicles is truly fantastic it would not be right for my situation. They reference the higher maintenance costs associated with a hybrid vehicle (including the possibility of having to replace the batteries after 100,000 - 150,000 miles) and point out that whatever money I would save in lower fuel costs would quickly be eclipsed by these maintenance costs since the car will be driven so many miles.

    Thanks for any input you can offer.
     
  2. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    12,544
    2,123
    1
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Which ones would those be? By "40 mpg mark", are you talking EPA highway ratings? How much highway driving at highway speeds will you be doing? If it's a mix or mostly city, how do their combined or city EPA ratings compare to the Prius liftback or c? You can look them up at Compare Cars Side-by-Side.

    These "consumer experts", have they ever owned a hybrid? Why are maintenance costs higher? Current Prius family members use a timing chain and have no belts, for instance. Brakes last forever too due to regenerative braking. Take a look at Lifespan/Operating costs - Prius Wiki and maintenance records of recent Toyota hybrids at Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity - Hybrid Electric Vehicles.

    Failed traction (HV) battery, what to do? - Prius Wiki applies to the regular Prius. I'd imagine the HV pack on a Prius c would be cheaper since it has fewer cells.
     
  3. alekska

    alekska Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    435
    138
    0
    Location:
    Atl
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    I bought 2005 Prius ( used, out of warranty, 100k miles ) 3 years ago. I do oil changes myself, and did transmission fluid change once. Changed shocks but that was not really required, more like upgrade. So far at 135k miles my maintenance costs are much lower than any of my previous vehicles. I imagine with new car with warranty and free 2-year maintenance you would have even less.

    Thanks,
    - Alex
     
  4. rjdriver

    rjdriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    407
    168
    0
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    Three
    Your experts failed basic math. The only additional maintenance cost associated with hybrids might be traction battery replacement. The Prius C battery is warranted for 100m miles or 8 years. Prius taxis in California have been known to go 200m, 300m, even 500m miles on their battery. Replacement cost is a little over $2000.00.

    14 mpg and 25m miles per year using $3.25/gallon = $5803.57 cost per year for gas
    46 mpg and 25m miles per year using $3.25/gallon = $1766.30 cost per year for gas

    Looks to me like you've covered your battery replacement cost pretty nicely in less than a year. And after you become Priusized, you'll probably get much better than than the EPA's 46 mpg with the C, even if all your driving is highway. If you do mostly stop and go, fairly short trips, with a mixture of highway, rural, and city, you'll do in the 50s easily.
     
    secondspassed likes this.
  5. ufourya

    ufourya We the People

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2008
    1,258
    336
    42
    Location:
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    Yaris drivers average about 35 MPG overall; Prius c, 52 MPG. @ 25k a year and $3.50 gas, monthly savings are around $68. You'll have to do the rest of the math figuring in your business situation - depreciating the vehicle, etc. If it is purely a business decision, go with the lowest cost. I do not believe that maintenance costs of the Pc will outstrip the Yaris.
     
  6. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    12,544
    2,123
    1
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    I think rjdriver means 8 years/100K miles for the HV battery warranty.
     
  7. mremaximus

    mremaximus "I can't wait to start hammering people" Bubbles

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    98
    21
    0
    Location:
    From parts unknown...
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    II
    I had a Honda fit, and it had the best cargo capacity of cars 4 times the size. I averaged about 34 mpg, and I would say this is the best small/big car for carrying a lot. That said I just hauled a bunch of stuff on Sunday and was impressed with the C, wouldn't hold as much as my previous fit, but it did well. Plus my first tank was 57.5 calculated mpg.

    I persanally think people are too caught up in the whole mpg vs battery replacement topic. Ththere're other reasons, and cool technology inside the C even if it takes however many years to break even.
     
  8. secondspassed

    secondspassed Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2012
    112
    26
    0
    Location:
    Corona, CA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    Three
    I always see/hear lots of banter back and forth about the extra expense associated with a hybrid, but very rarely see people actually crunching the numbers. I drive 36k miles a year and over 5 years I stand to save $8-10k (compared to my 29mpg Honda Fit). Based on that alone I'd say you will clearly save cash with the C. Maintenance costs are really moot since most other cars have similar expenses long term to the ~$2k battery replacement cost on a Prius and there's virtually no other maintenance to do.
     
  9. AtlantaBIRT

    AtlantaBIRT Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    16
    3
    0
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Wow - thanks to all for the replies. I think that I was under the impression that the battery replacement would be substantially higher so perhaps the Prius C is the way to go.

    For what it's worth the other cars I'm looking at are the Chevy Sonic and the Yaris.

    Thanks again..
     
  10. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    12,544
    2,123
    1
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    FWIW, Consumer Reports has scored the Prius c too low to recommend (lots of discussion about that here on Priuschat). CR has never liked the Yaris and it scores even lower (and thus too low to recommend).

    CR likes the regular Prius aka liftback better and recommends it. But, it's more money...

    The Sonic hatchback scored very low in CR while the sedan was better but they couldn't recommend/not recommend since it's too new to have a reliability rating. Considering how HORRIBLY the Cruze did in CR's reliability ratings so far (and if you check out cruzetalk.com, you'll see people lots of people w/problems, many serious for a car that for some of them is <1 year old), there's no way I'd buy the brand new Sonic. GM can't consistently make cars with at least average reliability, even after the model's been built for many years.

    Examples of Cruze problems I can remember of off the top of my head: besides the fire recall (fix involves cutting a hole in a one of the shields underneath the car to prevent fires partly due to botched oil changes), prematurely worn clutches, automatic transmissions that shift badly, coolant smells inside the car, thermostat problems, spiking speedometers (needle jumps around while standing still, sometimes to say 60+ mph), water leaks in the trunk (I think this has been fully resolved now), brakes suddenly stop working intermittently, etc.

    You'd be far better off buying a vehicle w/a known good reliability rating.

    Back to the Sonic, w/1.8L engine and 6-speed auto, they got 28 mpg overall (19 city/38 highway), which they called mediocre. With the 1.4L turbo and 6-speed manual, they got 30 mpg overall (21 city/39 highway). Compare that to The most fuel-efficient cars and Best & worst fuel economy.

    BTW, you didn't answer my question:

     
  11. AtlantaBIRT

    AtlantaBIRT Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    16
    3
    0
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Again, thanks for the great info! While I know that neither the Sonic nor the Yaris were surpassing the 40 MPG highway mark they are at least "pushing" it. As for my driving, I would say that it's typically 50% highway.

    I have never owned an American-made vehicle and am not excited by the prospect. I like the Sonic because it's a somewhat higher-performing car than the Yaris (and Prius C) as far as torque and HP and therefore would be slightly more "fun to drive". At the same time I could argue that getting 50+ MPG in a Prius C and saving a boatload of cash could be pretty darn fun as well (and maybe I take my savings and buy that Lotus Esprit I've always wanted).

    As for the "consumer experts" that I've spoken to - if I'm not mistaken they both own a Prius and speak often about how utterly fantastic they are. I assume that they must have a misconception about the maintenance costs of the Prius. The only other thing I can think is that perhaps they assume that if something serious goes wrong with the engine, transmission or other major component of the hybrid drive that the costs for repair would be substantially higher than if it were a typical straight-gas vehicle.

    I'm not making excuses for anyone - I wanted serious opinions from people who have owned and driven these cars and that's why I came here. I am in the infancy of choosing a new vehicle and don't really plan to purchase until the fall. I have test driven nothing at this point.

    I have been so incredibly pleased with my Toyotas and I tend to be very loyal to businesses that provide me with an excellent product.

    Thanks again for your time and effort..
     
    New2Here likes this.
  12. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    12,544
    2,123
    1
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    The advertising of only the highest EPA test figure (highway for non-hybrids) really bugs me. See DetNews: 40 mpg claims grab headlines, miss mark | PriusChat. What's the combined EPA mileage rating of the '12 Sonic w/1.8L engine and 6AT? 28 mpg. How about the 1.4L turbo w/6AT? 31 mpg. How about the Prius c and Prius liftback? 50 mpg. See Compare Side-by-Side.

    It's annoying that advertised figures only the highest figure like "40 mpg" (highway) ends up getting people to look at non-hybrids that significantly below that in combined driving. They then look at 50 mpg combined hybrids and think "hybrid's not worth it" because of they end up comparing a highway number to a combined number along w/various other reasons.

    If it were up to me, if advertising only a single number, then the combined mileage should be the only one allowed. Thus, the Sonic would be advertised as a 28 or 31 mpg vehicle.

    Not everyone lives and works on a highway and drives at highway speeds during a highway drive. Around here, try going anywhere during rush hour in the direction that the majority of traffic is flowing. It's a parking lot w/plenty of idling and stop and go. This is NOT anything like the EPA highway test cycle.

    Since your driving is 50% highway, then I'd be looking at combined mileage. Forget the EPA highway rating.

    I don't really agree about those repair costs. Engine won't be any more. I don't think the transmission is substantially more. The transaxle in the Prius is very simple w/a single planetary gearset, two motor generators, no internal clutches, no bands, no shift solenoids and no torque converter. You can look automatic transmissions at What is &quot;MG&quot;? | PriusChat vs. the PSD at Picasa Web Albums - cwerdna - Prius Connect.... If the inverter were to fail, that's expensive. The brake actuator's not cheap either.
     
    ftl likes this.
  13. Rayhat

    Rayhat New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    1
    0
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    If your hauling a package the size of a dishwasher box it will be tough getting it in if at all. If you hall several boxes that would be the equivelant size you can do that. If your packages have a cumulative weight of another person, say in the 200 hundred pound range you'll have to read up on a driver and passenger MPG post in the kind of traffic you will drive in. I have a 72 mile commute 98% on the highway. I like to drive 55. I get 62 MPG at 55 on that drive. If I jump into the HOV lane and wind up at 65-70 I get about 56MPG. There both pretty good. I am alone in the car and weigh 200. Drives great, comfortable for a small car. Like my old 1990 Honda civic I bought new in 90. Best MPG so far 67MPG on that 72 mile commute. Good luck
     
  14. Oldwolf

    Oldwolf Prius Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    820
    110
    0
    Location:
    NC
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Four
    Well now.

    If you can find a nice Gen 2, that would be an option for you. I have one and they have very high build quality and exceptional reliability. Even CR likes them. Not too many things break down on them afaik, and the HV battery pack can be rebuilt these days for not too much $. Chances are very high that it will not go bad on you.

    I have a C too, and it is turning out to be a very economical car for me. Initial purchase price is higher than a non hybrid of course, but with the miles you drive, you will be ahead of the curve in no time. Being a Toyota I do not expect any reliability issues with it. But time will tell if the C will be a reliability legend like the Gen 2's.

    I don't have a Gen 3 so I cannot comment on them. Others here will I am sure.

    But any car can break down, even a Toyota! So while it is rare, it is prudent to budget monthly for car repairs. At the end of a few years you will have a bucket of money to fix anything that might break.

    One of my most reliable cars I ever owned, and still do, has been my 2000 Chevrolet Cavalier. My daughter has it now, with 210k+ on the odometer. The only major problem I had with it was a dead fuel pump. It keeps chugging along! She moved to CA last year, loaded up the Cavalier and took it cross country (from NC!) with no problems. So US built cars are reliable to these days, don't worry about that.

    However, I vote for you to go Hybrid! (y)
     
  15. CDE

    CDE New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    3
    2
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    One
    IF those 20,000 miles are all at highway speeds you'd be best getting a VW TDI. On the highway those can break 50 mpg (my '00 Golf has done 56 on highway trips). But the TDIs can't hold a candle to the C in mixed-speed situations.
     
  16. jgestar

    jgestar Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    45
    15
    1
    Location:
    Apex, NC
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    First, the Prius C has a small cargo bay and the seats don't lay completely flat. If your deliveries are usually smaller than a couple of record boxes the cargo bay won't be an issue. Otherwise, the Honda Fit and Toyota Matrix have better cargo bays with the seats down. Neither gets the mileage of a Prius, but both beat your Tundra.

    Second, the Prius C is a sub-compact. Other drivers give your Tundra a wide berth lest you squish them. That wide berth will collapse if you downsize to a C. When I moved from a 1970 Cutlass to a 1990 Corolla, I was amazed how much ruder other drivers became. They weren't as scared of a Corolla as they were of a big, old Cutlass.


    Tom
     
  17. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    19,011
    4,081
    50
    Location:
    Grass Valley, CA.
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    The GenII and Prius c can do the same. :)
     
  18. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    12,470
    6,871
    2
    Location:
    Greenwood MS USA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    I travel 30,000 miles a year in a 2009 Prius liftback (previous generation, gets about 5 MPG less than the Prius c) I am at 98,000 miles and have rotated tires, changed oil and filters, and changed the tranaxle fluid at 60,000 miles. (not a Toyota recommendation, but well thought of here on Prius chat) When I get to 120,000 miles I change the PVC valve and spark plugs. I am on the third set of tires. My previous car got 24 MPG the Prius gets 46 MPG fully loaded (close to 40 in winter, (we do not get much winter) 44 in summer, and 48 in spring and fall) Using $2.50 gas I was going to 'pay' for the hybrid in 5.5 years but we did not have $2.50 gas so I 'paid' for for it in 3.1 years.

    Here is a link to who should not own a Prius (in my opinion)
    considering a Prius | PriusChat

    For real gas mileage comparisons, try Fuelly | Share and Compare Your MPG
    The 2009 is 45.9 on fuelly, so my Prius is average for my year.
    The Prius c is getting 52.1, while the Yaris is getting 35.7

    Assuming $3.00 gas and 20,000 miles

    20000/52.1 = 383 gallons = $1152 per year
    20000/35.7 = 560 gallons = $1681 per year
    So you save about $529 a year in gas alone. If you need a new HV Battery in 200,000 miles, you can pay for it out of the $5290 you will have saved in gas. (you will need less brake work, you may find insurance is cheaper)

    If gas goes up, you would save more.
    If you want to keep repair costs low, never routinely jumpstart your Prius, get a new 12 volt battery when the current one is dead. (plan every 4 years) Jumpstarting incorrectly could cost $4000.

    http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/22437_1348787682118_4391291_n.jpg (Fully loaded)
     
    Oldwolf likes this.
  19. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    12,544
    2,123
    1
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Per Compare Side-by-Side (under Specs tab), Prius c is a compact, not a sub-compact.
     
  20. AtlantaBIRT

    AtlantaBIRT Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    16
    3
    0
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Thanks again to all for the great information. I spent the day looking at cars yesterday and the Prius c knocked it out of the park for me. Granted it's been 12 years since I bought a new car (2000 Camry) but I can't recall ever being so impressed by a vehicle in this price range. I also looked at and drove the Yaris and a Chevrolet Sonic. The Yaris seemed strikingly similar to the Prius c however the price difference is just not enough for me to consider a Yaris, especially considering their combined MPG ratings.

    Incidentally the Prius c I drove was a Habenero Two. The color is also perfect - even better than I had hoped from looking at photos.

    Several of you made reference to what I would need to carry in the car. I own a very busy musical instrument repair business and pick up and deliver to several schools and music stores in the area. While my Tundra does a great job for large loads of summer repairs and marching bad instruments, the vast majority of my trips only see about 10-20 smaller instruments.

    Unfortunately my salesperson was less-than-helpful - keep in mind that this dealership is one of metro Atlanta's largest dealers. I am actually in the market for a Three with a sunroof and 15" wheels. He originally told me that sunroofs are not available on the C, only on the 3rd-Gen. He eventually figured out that that wasn't true but then told me that adding options to a C would make the car not worth it and I should just be looking at something else like a Prius v or a Camry (?!) even though I explained my specific needs for the C. When I asked about the other available options he told me that the stereo / entertainment system was the same across the lineup and that if I wanted the Entune / Nav system then it is a $2,500 option and that with the sunroof and 15" wheels that I would be looking at upwards of $28,000 and why not just go with a better car, etc., etc.. I asked if he had any threes in stock and he said that there were a couple but they were "on the other end of the lot". He did make a marginal push to sell me the habenero two that I drove but even that was half-hearted. Maybe it was just a bad day for him.. When I asked about ordering what I wanted he said that it would be a 3-6 month wait and I would need to put down several hundred or possibly thousand dollars as a deposit.

    While I understand that the sales people at the dealerships have a lot of cars to know a lot of things about, at the end of the day they only need to know about one BRAND. In my business I have to know virtually EVERYTHING about EVERY model from EVERY instrument manufacturer so that excuse doesn't fly with me. I expected more from a salesperson that claimed he had been in sales for over 10 years.

    Unfortunately it looks like a Habenero Three with 15" wheels and a Sunroof is non-existent in the southeast currently.