What are the chances that Toyota will put a bigger ICE in the Prius v?

Aptos Driver - I hope the chances are not very good at all. Do not give Toyota Marketing any bad ideas. With the 1.8-Liter ICE powering my Pv5 and me operating in “Around Town,” mixed City-Highway driving, I am humpin’ hard just to keep the measured “actuals” Fuel Economy being delivered by my v (vee) running up on the ragged edge of the low 50s MPG. Replacing the current 1.8 Liter I4 with the thirstier displacement 2.5-Liter you suggest, would drop my fuel economy in driving that 2.5-Liter powered v (vee) down into the high 40s fuel economy numbers. It would be the engine displacement straw that broke the MPG camel’s back, and cause me not to replace my 2012 v (vee) with such a fuel thirstier new v (vee) when the time comes to replace mine in a couple years.

The current design of the Prius v is a near optimal, High-Low mix of Passenger-Driver comfort, Cargo Hauling volume, and Fuel Economy, which is why I call it a “Caddy In A Kimono.” The “Changes,” improvements that I would like see implemented to help further boost its fuel economy are:

1. Adding a larger capacity Traction Battery, which would help me boost the CITY MPG “actuals” performance numbers I am logging.

2. Reducing the current 3.704:1, rear axle ratio of the Prius v to have it match the 3.268:1 axle ratio of the regular Prius sedan, which is powered-propelled by the same 1.8-Liter Atkinson-cycle four-cylinder gasoline engine that propels the v (vee) “V”onder “V”agon. This would boost both the Prius v wagon’s HIGHWAY & COMBINED MPG upwards a sukoshi bit.

Reducing the axle ratio by this 13.3% to match that of the Prius Sedan, directly or via use of a “Two-Speed Overdrive” Axle scheme, would help reverse some of the ~16% “MPG Hit” differential in EPA “Combined” MPG Fuel Economy between the 1.8-Liter Atkinson I4 Powered regular Prius sedan (50 MPG) and the 1.8-Liter Atkinson I4 Powered Prius v (42 MPG).

3. While we are in the dreaming mode, on the safety front I would like to see the “Standard” Prius v Five come equipped with the Dynamic Radar Cruise Control and Pre-Crash/Pre-Collision Safety Systems as “Standard.” Toyota is quick to do the Driving Safety “Talk” in their marketing; they also need to do the Driver Safety “Walk” in what they deliver by making these Driving Safety Enhancement Features “Standard” on the Pv5, w/o requiring the ATP option that includes non-safety oriented Nice-To-Have “Fluff Features.”

 

I guess Prius v will not have any big change until the the next Prius is out. 2015?

Rumor suggests 2013 RAV4 will have the Camry Hybrid system. So, if people want more power, that will be a great choice.

 

Bigger engine versus axle ratio. Bigger battery versus weight. And as to why we get less mileage than a fastback Prius, the design of the V pays the price in aerodynamics for the squareback, added frontal mass forcing itself through the air and weight both in loaded and unloaded form which requires a drivetrain more biased towards power.

I am getting twice what my CRV gave me for little to no sacrifice in drive-ability (haven't tried it in snow and I'm sure it will have less traction from only 2WD and less aggressive tire tread design) in mixed 40-60 degree driving slightly more gently but not going crazy trying for the highest mileage. I'm more than content as, even if I got 10 MPG more, the % increase wouldn't be as dramatic.

Things I'd like to see: more sound deadening, turn signals on the outside mirrors, optional LED DRLs as opposed to fog lights, optional 3-door unlock (And when I mean optional, I mean set the option from the configuration screen, not have to have a dealer install them), a bigger hood for the status displays to reduce glare.

 

God forbid. There is nothing wrong with current setup.
I would rather see larger battery and/or alternative electric motor on rear wheel drive to make it 4x4 (manually) in a deep snow.

 

I think a 2.5l option is a great idea.

 

Tideland Prius – I assume your “…but make the v even slower” means slower in acceleration. I normally operate and “drivability” drive my v (vee) in the ECO Mode 99.9% of the time, and do all my accelerating and speed changes staying in the Green Zone on the HSI and out of the Red Zone. I only occasionally go into the “After-Burner” POWER (PWR) Mode to negotiate and maneuver in high-density traffic driving environments. Since I drive using this high fuel consumption efficiency ECO Mode driving style, were the rear axle ratio of the Prius v to be reduced from its current 3.704:1 to the 3.268:1 used in the 3G, it would definitely work to bump up my Per Tank-Full MPGs without any detectable increase in “Acceleration Slowness” with me employing my current ECO Green Zone Acceleration technique. If Toyota decided to plunk the “very fuel efficient” 2AR-FXE 2.5-Liter engine into the v (vee) in the future, it likely would not noticeably change my “Acceleration Off The Line” Profile from that being delivered by the v (vee)’s current 2ZR-FXE “Atkinson Cycle” 1.8-Liter I4 engine married to the T-HSD.

The truth be told, it is not about whether the v (vee) is ICE powered by a 1.8-Liter I4 or a 2.5-Liter I4. Once the Prius v & Hybrid Synergy Drive Badges on the Rear Hatch Door are spotted by the “Great Gas Guzzling Unwashed” driving gas guzzling SUVs, Pick ‘Em Ups, Duallies, and the other assorted impatient “Your-Not-Accelerating-As-Fast-As-I-Want-You-To” Drivers who mill around me on the road ways, it is too late. If they are behind me, they like to ride my bumper and fill my rearview mirror as I cruise along in traffic at the posted Maximum Legal Speed Limit or am waiting at a Red-Light-Changing-To-Green. At their first opportunity, they will Gas Guzzle Pedal-To-The-Metal roar around me as they Single Digit I.Q. Wave & Beep, Beep, Bleep me off. They do this as I am courteously cruising along in the Right-Slow Lane in the ECO “Green Zone” or ECO “Green Line #10 On the HSI” Accelerating. These folks would and will exhibit their same “In A Hurry To Go Nowhere” on-road driving behaviors, whether I was piloting a v (vee) powered by its current 2ZR-FXE 1.8-Liter I4 or one powered by the “Fantasy” 2AR-FXE 2.5-Liter I4

Remember that in Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive propelled vehicles, peak torque and power demands for things like acceleration can be met and bolstered with and by the electric motor(s) and traction battery of the HSD, which makes the ICE, per se, more of an adjunct-assist power source for acceleration performance rather than the sole source of acceleration power, as compared to that same ICE being installed in a conventional, non-hybrid powered vehicle.

IMHO, the 1.8-Liter is more than just “sufficient,” it is all the gasoline/petrol energy-sourced ICE propulsion power the Prius v needs to deliver fuel-efficient ECO operation and reasonable acceleration performance. While I agree that the current v (vee) implementation is a “good balance of power and mpg,” I feel the fuel economy of the current Prius v platform could easily be further enhanced and improved with minimal addition non-recurring engineering.


CATGIC’S TOYOTA THINGS-TO-DO-LIST TO IMPROVE V (VEE) MPG-FE:

1. Toyota should work on reducing the v (vee)’s Coefficient of Drag (Cd) a sukoshi bit more. Even the sub-compact Prius c (cee) blivet-mobile with its 0.28 Cd beats the v (vee)’s Cd = 0.29.
2. Toyota should “Hybrid $martly” tweak the final drive ratio downward. They should do this directly via a more fuel-efficient “Fixed Ratio” like the above discussed 3.268:1 rear axle ratio used in the 3G’s drive train or implementing an “Over-Drive Mode” for Freeway/Interstate/HIGHWAY High MPG/Low Liters per 100 km Open-Road Driving that contributes to delivering enhanced fuel economy when cruising at Highway Speeds where the HSD causes the ICE to be “Turnin’ & Burnin’ ” full-time. Heck, even my Dad’s Euber-Gas Guzzling, 1948 V-12 Lincoln Continental had an “Over-Drive” to conserve fuel during open-highway driving, and that was when “… fill her up with ‘Ethyl’ ” only cost 24.9¢ per gallon.
3. Toyota likely knew when they slide the v(vee) wagon down the ways at Toyota Town that its Traction Battery capacity was marginal and inadequate for a Mid-Size Station Wagon sized hybrid vehicle. It is another example of the “One-Too-Many” corners cut by Toyota’s Corner-Office Marketing “Geniuses.” Toyota sorely needs to increase the battery storage capacity of this currently ‘Too Small-Too Little Available Electrical Oomph” Traction Battery installed in the 2012 and 2013 models of the Prius v. An expanded electrical storage capacity sized Traction Battery would help bump the CITY MPG-FE performance of the v(vee) up from the present Low-To-Mid 4os EPA MPG numbers.
4. Of course, in the world of automotive fuel economy, reducing vehicle weight is “Motherhood.” Reducing the Curb Weight of the v (vee) would definitely bolster the CITY & HIGHWAY EPA & “Actual Measured” Fuel Economy numbers.

REFLECT & COGITATE ON THIS DATA:

EPA MPG-FE for a Camry XLE Hybrid powered by a 2AR-FXE 2.5-Liter I4 is 40 City/40 Combined/38 Highway. HyCam Curb Weight = 3525 lbs with a Coefficient of Drag (Cd) = 0.27.

EPA MPG-FE for a Prius v Five Hybrid powered by a 2ZR-FXE 1.8-Liter I4 is 44 City/42 Combined/40 Highway. Prius v Curb Weight = 3274 lbs with a Coefficient of Drag (Cd) = 0.29.

EPA MPG-FE for a Prius Hatchback powered by the 2ZR-FXE 1.8-Liter I4 is 51 City/50 Combined/48 Highway. Prius Hatchback Curb Weight = 3042 lbs with a Coefficient of Drag (Cd) = 0.25.

Looking at and comparing these specs and fuel economy numbers tells me that, while the 2AR-FXE 2.5-Liter I4 may have the “very fuel efficient” MAGIC you contend it does, its still has 28% larger displacement that still slurps down more fuel per mile then does the 2ZR-FXE 1.8-Liter I4 cruising down the Freeway/Interstate/Open-Highway. I am a firm believer in the maxim “There Is No FREE ENERGY Lunch.”

A Prius v fitted out with a 2AR-FXE 2.5-Liter I4 would likely cause the v (vee)’s Official EPA Fuel Economy numbers to converge towards the HyCam’s 40 City/40 Combined/38 Highway numbers rather then in the direction of the 51 City/50 Combined/48 Highway numbers on the Prius 3G Hatchback Sedan’s Monroney Sticker.

We will just have to wait and see which U.S./North America demographic Toyota chooses to continue serving in the future. Will it be ECO Mode loving buyer-owners in my demographic of fuel conserving “Fuel Misers” who want to drive even more fuel-efficient Prius v Station Wagon “Fuel Sippers” in the future? Will it be the POWER Mode demographic of Aptos Driver and others like him who feel the “Caddy In A Kimono” Prius v is not fast enough off the line at traffic lights or snappy enough maneuvering in traffic to suit their driving tastes, and who crave the added power and fuel consumption of 2.5-Liter I4 or other larger displacement Toyota ICE? We shall see in the NEXT GEN Cycle rendition of the Prius v.

 

If I were mechanically inclined I would re-install the Liftback's final drive ratio, and see if less quick meant better MPG. I live on a flood plain and never need more acceleration.

 

I think the v could use a small diesel.

 

Tideland Prius – I too like the availability of “3 different ICE-propelled modes to suit different driving styles” at the push of a button. As I said, I would like to see one more button --- one marked “OD” for Over Drive. I use the EV, ECO an PWR buttons to adapt the v (vee)’s “In-Traffic” performance and response to meet different driving environments. However, the fuel-efficiency short sightedness of Toyota remains that they are super-focused on the CITY MPG numbers, and less focused on doing reasonably simple, proven engineering tweaks to help deliver incremental fuel economy gains when the ICE is fired up, slurping fuel, and screaming along at 70-ish MPH Freeway / Interstate / Open-Highway speeds.

I have never hauled 4 or 5 adults with luggage in my 2ZR-FXE 1.8-Liter I4 powered “V”onder “V”agon, and do not doubt you that the v(vee) may “struggle a bit” burdened with such a larded human cargo load. However, on numerous social entertaining and dining occasions I have Limo-style hauled a driver-chauffeur (175 lbs, me), a beauteous front passenger (my 108 lbs bride), two rear seat adult passengers (husband and wife friends weighing in at an estimated total of 350± lbs) ---175 + 108 + 350 = 443 ≈ 500 lbs and Max A/C cooling with no noticeable or detectable “Hybrid Huffing & Puffing” from the 1.8-Liter I4 HSD “Puffer Belly” of my Pv5ATP.

Your hauling “4 or 5 adults with luggage” scenario is a worst-case loading and hauling one. For the record, I am O.K. with the Prius v or other any other motor vehicle occasionally “struggling a bit” when it is required to haul a “Worst-Case” load at the top end of its Passenger-Cargo Transporting & Hauling weight specification. “Struggling” does not equal “Failing.”

Any Toyota passenger vehicle hauling such an “Upper Weight Range” load “will struggle a bit,” even Toyota’s 18/21/25 City / Combined / Highway MPG, 3.5L V6 powered Sienna Mini-Van “People Mover” loaded to the gills with passengers, baggage, and gifts for a Holiday trip to Grandma's house “will struggle a bit.” The difference between a “Struggling” Sienna Mini-Van and a “Struggling” Prius v Station Wagon is 18/21/25 versus 44/42/40 with the EPA saying the Sienna costs $2,500 per year in fuel to operate, and the Prius v burning up half that at $1,250.

I do not and would not want to be forced by Toyota designers to have to haul around 250 lbs of added 2AR-FXE 2.5-Liter engine dead weight, 24/7/365, along with its attendant increased fuel consumption, just to have some additional horsepower to make the Prius v “Struggle Less” on occasional over the hill and dale trips to Grandma’s house or for an annual family vacation or for infrequent camping trips.

I drive my Prius v as I previously drove my 2G before it --- “Hybrid $martly.” By “Being At One With The Prius” in my driving, I have managed to keep my EPA 44/42/40 Prius v delivering nothing less than 50+ MPG Tank-Fulls “measured actuals” over its 11-month fuel consumption lifetime. I fear an upward Curb Weight Delta of carrying an additional 250-lbs worth of “Boat Anchor,” resulting from installing the 2AR-FXE 2.5-Liter ICE in a future v (vee), would cause my current pristine 50+ MPG-FE running average data to dip down into the 40s MPGs (Ouchy, OUCH! That hurts my wallet).

 

The chances are much greater for Toyota to upgrade the electric motor rather than the gas motor. Look for a future Prius v (plug-in) with a much more torque, better mpg and less reliance on the gas engine.

 

Tideland Prius – I was not aware of the “at high speeds (> 140km/h), the engine goes into ‘power’ mode, prioritizing power over fuel economy at those speeds” characteristic and operating set up for the 2ZR-FXE 1.8-Liter I4. Thank you for sharing that information. However, I have not driven as fast as 140 kph/87 mph since my pre-Prius Porsche driving days, which was before I was assimilated into the “Hybrid Hive.”

I recognize that you are operating up Canada way in the far Northern Temperate Zone latitudes. I am fortunate in that I live in “Hybrid Friendly” Florida, where the weather, outside air temperature, and essentially flat terrain favor optimal fuel efficient operation of the Hybrid Synergy Drive controlled-powered Prius, which is happiest and most fuel-efficient operating in temperatures in the 60°F to 80°F (16°C to 27°C) range. There are no “regular hills on the main street” in Florida to stress test the hill climbing mettle of a Prius of any stripe or gasoline-powered engine size. The steepest “Pseudo-Hills” here on the Space Coast are the high crossover bridges that span the intercoastal waterway.

I usually negotiate these “Up & Overs” using DWL-Driving With Load. Since the Grand “Fuel-Sipping” Plan with DWL is to hold a constant throttle pedal position with a slow bleeding of speed off during the hill climb until cresting, there are no real opportunities for me to experience or observe any hill climbing stress “Problemo” issues.

You reminded me of Toyota’s press release story on why they said they replaced the 1.5-Liter I4 with the 1.8-Liter I4 when they designed the 3G to replace the 2G. So maybe my “super-focused on the CITY MPG numbers” should have been stated as “mostly-focused on the CITY MPG numbers.” As a data point of one (me in Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia coastal areas Interstate driving operation), my old iconic 2G delivered better, higher measured and indicated average running MPG numbers for Interstate/Open-Highway cruise driving than the 3G or my v (vee). This was and is for Interstate travel at ECC cruise control set speeds in the range 66-70 MPH (106-113 KPH). I think that once your Interstate/Open-Highway travel speed rises above 70-71 MPH, the 1.8-Liter I4 will start bettering the 1.5-Liter I4 with regard to a lesser rate of fuel consumption.

 

The end is in sight.

So an economical Japanese car sold well in America. It wasn't the best looker but it did its job and was one of the most economical production cars in the World. Yet, as it became more and more mainstream people decided that it should be bigger, have more power, be faster and as a compromise less economical.

Suddenly within 5 years it will become the same as all other cars in America - big and bloated (and sold barely anywhere else because they're too thirsty).

Remember the reason WHY the Prius is popular! Because it is economical. You want less economy but more power....BUY SOMETHING ELSE

 

Our family has one of each, a 12 HyCam and a 12 Prius v.

We really enjoy both cars, but they are very different. The Prius v puts up much better mpg numbers than the Camry. I don't think it would be possible to put the HyCam ICE in the v and get anything close to the same mileage numbers. Nor is it necessary from my perspective; I love driving the v just as it is. If you put the bigger ICE in it I don't think its a Prius anymore.

However, I think Toyota got it right with the way they have set up the v. I cross-shopped the Prius against the v, and chose the v for the additional space, but also because I found it a far more pleasant drive than the Prius. They are different cars for different purposes. If the v had driven more like the Prius I am not sure I would have purchased it -- I certainly would have given the C-Max a more serious look.

 

Ah THAT explains it, only someone who had never driven a v could have started this thread.